Julie Bindel & Sharron Davies can't believe women centre their politics around the trans issue

[ImpossibleDrum]

Julie Bindel

You may hate me for this (well, some of you at least, but I cannot BELIEVE that many of you on here are deciding who is good or bad for PM because of the trans issue ALONE. I mean, I KNOW it is an urgent issue, but so are a million other things right now!!

Sharron Davies

I agree with your too Julie. There’s a bigger picture right now with people potentially unable to feed or keep their kids warm this winter. We can keep bringing the sunlight to other issues.

They'd probably be happy to keep it up, last week Helen Staniland happily admitted that transphobia is a gateway into fascism.

Unsurprisingly, I'm not too sure you understand how discourse works, AF. However, I believe you must be familiar with the maxim that it is for those who make claims to provide the proof of them.

You made assertions with certainty: you had performed no due diligence and turned out to be factually incorrect on the follow point. You then shifted your criticism to what SD ought to do which was a case of doing as you say and not as you do. You continue to extrapolate from your own motivated reasoning.

You describe factual descriptions of your actions as pompous. That does give some insight into several matters that I've addressed previously. As above, I hope that this is restricted to your online persona. I would be fascinated if you were to start a thread about what you wish to achieve through your online activities where they overlap with women's rights.

😂👏

I'm pretty confident that isn't what she said, but I know nothing about it.
Do you have a link?

Mine too.

I thought this thread was about Sharron Davis telling people not to vote Tory? 'A bad thing'

And now she's aligning herself with right-wingers, also 'a bad thing'?

I know these people will try anything in the book to try and discredit successful women like Bindel and Davies but one would hope that it would be something a little more plausible than 'no, you're the carcass.

“Only women have a cervix.”
KS’s answer: “You can’t say that.”

What else won’t you be able to say?

This ^

Yes it's certainly intriguing watching antifascist trying to discredit Sharron Davies on a thread about Davies' expressing anti Tory sentiments. But compulsive as this is, what I'm really interested in is whether left wing gc feminists have a strategy that would allow me to vote labour and still have a chance of retaining my female rights. Is there a plan and if so, please can we hear it?

Anti What's you Twitter name? I want to know if you've ever retweeted me.

I like you am expressing opinions on a message board.

Get over yourself

Soooo Matilda does NOT want to live 'as a woman'?

And trans people are the most discriminated against?????

And it's GC people who are 'far right'?

Have I hit my head?

It's because we don't think we can win the war if the MRA win in their bid to obliterate the meaning of 'woman'. There can be no specific rights and protections for a class which does not exist. Despite the fact that that class of people can continue to be oppressed and disenfranchised.

I've really enjoyed reading this spat with @antifascist . Their style of argument really reminds me of that old piece (old = from the 90s) about the moon being a hoax.

phdn.org/archives/revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm

One day, when I have time, I think I'll sit down and make up a bingo card from the arguments used in this magnificent satire. But in the meantime, I just want to suggest that:

• A retweet does not imply approval of the original tweeter's position on everything.
• The purpose of discussion is to find out what the truth is, not just win the argument. This means that you actually have to discuss, not just imply, insinuate, and express horror at the source's sinfulness.
• There is a truth out there, in the sense that the world is constituted in particular ways, and not in others. It is possible to approach to that truth through reasoned discussion when conducted in good faith and when argued and evidenced properly. Or, really, when argued and evidenced at all!
• I don't care if Davies has retweeted something from someone who has views I find abhorrent if the retweet is entirely unrelated to those other views. So what?

And as always I'm impressed by the calm patience of the women replying.

i note that a number of those who habituate this website are emarkably sanguine about leading figures in the gender critical movement amplifying far right views-

I'd be amazed if Sharron Davies sees herself either as a leading figure in the "GC movement", or as amplifying far right views.

May I link to something Orwell said once in his Tribune column? The first bit:

www.telelib.com/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune/AsIPlease19441208.html

Does the retweet make Davies somehow "objectively pro holocaust denial"? No.

Your reaction in this thread is one of horror at what you seem to see as moral betrayal of a movement. A sort of sin. I'm a liberal. I don't think it's sinful to be wrong. I don't think it's sinful to make a mistake. A mistake, being wrong, are matters of fact. Sin is an error of the soul, and I don't think the concept is relevant here. So, yes, I'm sanguine.

By the way, "habituate" doesn't mean what you think it does.

And it's also a trust issue. Because 99% of people are not approaching these things as experts where they can look at the data themselves, they are relying on others to do that properly.

It's already had an effect, lots of people simply don't accept that people or groups that preach gender ideology are worth listening to on any science related issue. They don't trust their judgement. And I don't blame them.

And the dire state of the gender critical movement can be seen by the enthusiasm with which many people here are deciding which candidate for the next Conservative Prime Minister to support based on who can be most extreme about trans people - (based as far as I can understand it on fears that transpeople will enable more men to dress as women to frequent women's lavatories )

Is this issue really more important to you than the housing crisis, the fact that wages haven't risen for 14 years ,rampant inflation, an energy crisis, millions being in dire poverty. raw sewage floating down rivers and the return of polio, the decline of the NHS, exorbitant cost of education, attacks on civil rights, iv or the inabiliity to solve brexit?

why won't she admit to the mistake, then?

@antifascist

I think women who are prepared to say sex is real have been remarkably sanguine about being effectively removed from political life for the best part of a decade.

And this post is one example of all that is good about Mumsnet. Love it for the intelligence with the humour thrown in!

@antifascist

I don’t see any of the candidates being “extreme”. What’s extreme about suggesting single sex changing rooms and a unisex one for people who don’t want to use them?

everytime AF pops up my respect for the mothers of teenagers grows 😆

This is so true. Hannah Arendt wrote about this:

The result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end—is being destroyed

Me too 😅
I'm also reminded of those phrases about pigeons or squirrels that Madame Bunbury was so keen on.