Please can someone explain like I’m 5

[Justdontgetit000]

I’ve name changed for this.

I feel very weird about the trans issues lately, something feels “off” but I can’t put it into words. I’m pretty left wing, very pro-choice, I consider myself a feminist.

I “hang around” online with others who have similar beliefs to me mostly, they are the ones I find myself agreeing with and wanting to defend. So I feel like I know where I am with most topics. Then on a forum I lurk on, someone got banned for saying they don’t want to be referred to as body parts. The person who started the thread (who is also a mod) said that when discussing Roe v Wade we can’t just say “women” we also need to say AFAB or “womb/uterus owners”. If we don’t our posts will be removed. I don’t post on there anyway so doesn’t affect me, but it rubbed me the wrong way.

I can’t articulate why, I feel like I’m in a place mentally where I SHOULD be fine with this because of all my other beliefs. Does that make sense? Yet I felt angry reading this. I don’t want to be offending people simply for using the word “women”. Then I feel guilty and like I’m transphobic?

I want to say I have no issues with any trans people, in that I’d have nothing but love and support for a friend for example who was trans, and would never ever be rude to or abusive towards trans people. Yet I get the feeling my mixed emotions towards all this would get me called a TERF. I know what that stands for but don’t really understand the term, I know a little of JK Rowling and her situation and I read that she got some awful messages after her controversial tweets, and that scares me. So I’d only talk about this anonymously.

Can anyone help me figure out, in a very basic way, what is happening in my mind and perhaps point me in a direction where I can learn more? I’ve tried to look for threads like FAQs about this issue but can’t find any.

Thanks for reading!

It's not transphobic to object to the erasure of words like woman, female. Just because somebody who shouts very loudly and wields a banhammer claims that certain words make you a "terf" it doesn't actually invalidate all your other beliefs. In real life many people have a nuanced view of issues. This recent move to make everything ultra-polarised, you're in the in-group vs out-group, one of us/one of them, if you believe X then you must also believe Y, Z, and ABC otherwise you're an evil traitor - is unhelpful and stifles debate and change, it doesn't enable it.

This is interesting:

waitbutwhy.com/2019/10/idea-labs-echo-chambers.html

OP - MN is full of sharp, witty, thoughtful and kind women, some of whom have already posted on your thread. It is also anonymous, and as such, people will write things that they mostly wouldn’t say directly to you in person. Ignore the vitriol, and clutch the words of wisdom, is my advice.

I think it's because not being able to say the word woman is like deleting all that women are. Like we never existed as women.

Ah, join the club OP.

In the UK there are a lot of left-wing feminists speaking out about this. This includes, in my experience, a large number of women with a background working with vulnerable women and children. And many lesbian women, and many concerned mothers. We have raised genuine concerns about the impact of self-id and trans ideology on the safety of women and girls, and on the well-being of vulnerable adolescents. Instead of engaging with the questions, transactivists react with abuse and accusations of transphobia.

There are sadly plenty of right-wing types about, especially in the US, who are genuinely transphobia as well homophobic and misogynistic. I think particularly online these voices can get tangled and this has fed the hostility. However, our cultures are very different and we speak from a different place.

I find that most people I've spoken to in real life share my specific concerns about the ideology when it comes down to it, whilst wishing trans people no harm and believing everyone should be treated with respect.

Hi OP! Others have explained, but the reason you're getting the push-back is because we routinely get new posters coming her with faux-innocent questions coming here to screenshot comments to post out of context on twitter to show how bigotted we all are.

At the risk of being on the receiving end of that, I'll respond to this bit:

The person who started the thread (who is also a mod) said that when discussing Roe v Wade we can’t just say “women” we also need to say AFAB or “womb/uterus owners”. If we don’t our posts will be removed. I don’t post on there anyway so doesn’t affect me, but it rubbed me the wrong way.

I object to this phrasing for a number of reasons.

Firstly, I find the phrasing deeply offensive in it's own right. I am more than a uterus. I am a daughter, sister, teacher, clinician, athlete... I am much more than a body with female sex organs, men, for the use off. I have an instinctive flinch with this phrase possibly because, for so much of history, women have been thought of that way. Uterus havers to bear the male heir for their male husband; recorded in history solely as 'wife of...', with their own name lost to the record. It is deeply offensive and reductionist.

Secondly, it is inaccurate. I am perimenopausal. Many of my same aged peers no longer have their uterus. If my sodding periods don't start sodding behaving I may be one of them. How do they fit?

Thirdly, there is a perfectly good word. "Woman". Deliberately choosing not to use it is a message in itself. THat message is 'Some people with uteruses are men'. And the opposite 'Some people with penises are women'. And should therefore have free access to women's spaces. I don't believe that. Like you, I believe transwomen (and transmen) should be treated with dignity and respect, addressed by the name and gender identity that they have chosen, and fully integrated into every day life and work. But transwomen are not women. It does noone any favours to pretend that they are.

Fourthly, how do you defend what you cannot define? The recent Roe v Wade decision has highlighted that women's rights are under pressure. For abortion, a uniquely women's right. Yet the ACLU, in their statement on which groups would be most affected, did not once mention women. How many more rights are under threat, which we cannot defend because we cannot say who we are?

I would recommend reading JK Rowlings essay yourself. Don't believe what people who haven't read it tell you it's about.

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

Oh and welcome. Many of us here were previously liberal-anything-goes-type feminists who had a WTF moment.

Hey OP
Are you familiar with intersectionality? It's basically the idea that things like race, sex, gender etc are all part of an overlapping system of discrimination.

The problem with that, in my view is that it leads to 'group think' and means that if you're a left wing (for example) then you must also by default be ok with all the other overlapping belief systems too.

But what's wrong with 'pick and mix'? Why can't you be a leftie who's passionate about women's rights but has questions or different thoughts about X, Y or Z issues? It's good and healthy to think critically about each issue independently and come to your own conclusion.

The 'group think' enthusiasts won't like that and will chuck round big words like 'bigot' and things that end in 'phobe' but actually you're just thinking independently. Nothing wrong with that!

I think that's the tension you're feeling. You're breaking away from intersectionality but that doesn't make you any less of a leftie or a feminist.

@Motorina

Third point is on point

Or at least, one of the current manifestations of one interpretation of intersectionality and how that should guide action.

Intersectional thinking is very important to understanding, say, the experiences (and disproportionate deaths) of black women giving birth in the UK.

Yes! Like we didn’t exist until men joined the club

While it may be a bit early in OP’s peaking journey for this, I think this is the really key point:

It can be psychologically destabilising if you built a lot of your identity around being a modern, tolerant, progressive person. You get used to it.

This seems to be a particular problem among the left, and I think if we don’t get this sorted out (not just the gender thing, the entire mindset) we will be back here in 5-10 years with another issue.

suggest not building your identity around opinions you have. Especially not opinions that come in batches where you’re not allowed to diverge from the package of acceptable beliefs. Especially especially not where participation in the belief bundle confers moral worth on you and others who share the beliefs, and casts any divergent thinkers as evil, un-inclusive, anti-progressive.

think for yourself, assess individual ideas on their merits, learn to spot errors in reasoning, ask ‘is this actually progressive or is it just packaged to appear so?’. Be really really wary of group think and tribalism. Consider frequently that you might be wrong and respect your opponents (yes, even those on the right, or in the centre), who usually have similar goals and ideals to you, just a different outlook on how to achieve them.

And don’t apologise for not having a clear question or all your thoughts in order yet. Not many of us do. It’s good to recognise, hey, being told to say ‘uterus haver’ makes me feel uneasy for reasons I can’t articulate’. This is how lots of women began to see it. Good luck.

I bloody care. Kids are being put on the path to sterilisation because they don't fit in. They are being told at school that they can choose to be a boy or a girl. Rape crisis will turn women away if they refuse to be in group therapy with men. Men are being housed in women's prisons. A male police office can strip search a woman if he says he's a woman. The word "woman" is being systematically removed from NHS healthcare literature.

This stuff is happening to women and girls and I care about that very much. Lots of us do, that's why there's a whole board on the topic you care so little about that you had to write a post.

Op, this is an excellent primer:

The State Media's Gender Ideology Season 1

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkvq4A8DyDt3YzMTdlZfwjDNH3-iEV8hW

Ffs why don't links work?

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkvq4A8DyDt3YzMTdlZfwjDNH3-iEV8hW

Since social media came along, many adults have begun to take a childishly tribal attitude to important issues, behaving like a clique of primary-school children who must all think alike. If you deviate from that in any way, you're a bad person and must be bullied and treated like an outcast.

Demands for women's rights and single-sex spaces elicit rage not only from misogynists but also from a lot of otherwise pleasant people who have been told that these demands go against progressive values. If you talk about women's rights, you will be accused of being a transphobe, a Trump supporter, a Covid denier, a fascist, a right-wing extremist and a beneficiary of Koch funding. Initially these accusations will cause distress, but eventually you will become inoculated against this line of attack and you will begin to ignore it because it is so far from reality.

Truly liberal politics cannot mean forcing people to profess the same beliefs on pain of public humiliation or worse. A progressive coalition is not built on requiring everyone to think the exact same way on every issue. A kinder society is not created through threats of violence and shouting past each other. Twitter's version of "progressivism" looks a lot like a fundamentalist religion where blasphemy is punished and apostasy leads to shunning.

The solution is to begin treating yourself and other people like adults. Treat complex questions with respect, and don't try to oversimplify them - but be suspicious of answers which make no sense, and notice when rage or personal attacks are used in place of actual answers. Notice how you are affected by interactions with groups, especially on social media, and try to identify your patterns - and look out for how others use alternative strategies for engagement which you too can employ. Watch out for the buttons other people can press which intimidate you, and practice becoming more resilient, while remaining focused on the discussion and without giving into anger.

You might feel like the weirdo eating lunch on her own in a corner for a bit, but you'll find your people. And we all know it's the friendless weirdos who grow up to change the world.

As a parent of a disabled child I care about disabled rights I suppose. I also care about the hidden agenda behind a lot of the recent pushing of certain narratives in schools and on social media.
but in all honesty besides maybe an hour a day of free time, I’m usually busy from 7am till midnight working so don’t have much time to really care about much else besides my immediate life.

OP, you have to decide for yourself where you draw the line in what half the worlds population should lose to suit what is reportedly 'a tiny minority'.

If you don't draw a line (e.g. to refuse to make half the population unable to name themselves as anything other than terms that seem derogatory out of context) then TRAs will never stop moving the goalposts until there is no room for women left in the world other than a space to validate men who say they are not men.

Wherever you draw that line (even if it is just at the point that you are not comfortable with a grown man who identifies as a teenaged girl wanting an unsupervised sleep over with your teenaged daughter) you will be threatened, called a transphobe & possibly have your job threatened depending on how much influence you have or how vulnerable you are.

Personally I have decided to draw a very hard line which most people would regard as more extreme than they would be comfortable with.

That's my choice, you have to make your own.

Just remember, everything you do to placate these misogynists who claim to speak for the whole transcommunity (even if they are actually just women hating men who jump on any cause to harm women) damages other women.

When you fill in the 'gender' box on a form without raising the issue that it is a belief you are being forced to declare & support to the detriment of reality, you are actively taking steps to oppress women as a sex class.

Everything you compromise on costs biological women.
How many womens rights are you prepared to help be given away?

It's really common for people to buy into prepackaged sets of beliefs and opinions that feel consistent and cohesive, and which have a community of followers who all share those beliefs.

Almost everyone does it, whether it's the prepackaged set they were raised with, or another set they came across later in life. We trust what we hear from the people around us that we love and have things in common with, and the people in authority, I think because we're social animals whose groups function best when they feel mostly the same way about things.

IMO we feel the need for social acceptance because traditionally rejection by the group is a terrible fate in a social species like ours, and while you could call this need to belong to a group "tribalism", I think it's important to recognise that it's a human need to have a community you feel you belong to, and it's natural for your beliefs and opinions to become aligned with those of the group because that's what humans need to do to be accepted within the group and maximise their social success and survival chances. And, of course, if you become part of a group because they, like you, believe A, B and C, it's likely that your opinion on D will be similar to the group's opinion without any persuasion or coercion, simply because you generally think similarly about things.

If we didn't have this tendency to take on prepackaged sets of beliefs and opinions, every individual would have to spend time investigating and thinking about every single personal, social, political, moral, or other issue, and come to a conclusion about it. It would be very difficult to get anything done that required lots of people acting together.

I do think it's important to think independently about issues, of course — but I think it's important to recognise how natural and adaptive our group-belonging behaviours are, so that we don't beat ourselves (and others) up too much for going along with the group consensus. And to recognise that this isn't just a leftist problem, or a religion problem, but a basic aspect of being human.

OP this thread is good too www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4521371-New-visitors-start-here?page=1

Ideally this thread would be pinned to the top of the sex and gender page but this hasn't happened or isn't possible (I have asked).

A few years ago I was probably like you, left-liberal, live and let live. However the more I have read and learnt the more I have become an activist as this is too important not to act. My main focus to date has been my local school as well as signing petitions and attending events, webinars and meetings.

If we can't define a woman we cannot protect women and girls. A woman is an adult human female. A girl is a young human female.
The main areas of concern are:
Schools and how they teach about gender identity ideology.
Medicalisation of children.
Homophobia - trans away the gay.
Prisons.
Refuges.
Rape crisis centres.
Sports.
Single sex spaces.
Language in the NHS, government and our daily lives.
Violence against women and girls.
Nordic model for prostitution.
Stop Surrogacy now.

It is overwhelming when you first start to awaken to this debate as there are so many areas to focus on. I picked schools because I have children at school.

I've met local women through events I've attended and now we meet every month to discuss issues and areas of focus.

You are not alone, there are lots of us many more than six that we are taunted with. We are not bigots or transphobes. I am pro women and girls not anti trans.

We must act, there is no room for apathy.
In the words of Kelly Jay Keen
If not now then when? If not you then who?

It is very difficult even to frame a clear question because:
A. Some who you are asking have restrictions on the vocabulary that you are 'allowed' to use. These artificial restrictions rely on altering the meaning of common words (like woman). They do this just so you, the questioner automatically sounds unreasonable. Whereas you wouldn't if words carried their usual meaning.
B. You quickly find yourself trying to fit in by believing in two or more contradictory ideas. This bends your brain out of shape. Cognitive dissonance is I think the name for it.
Believing that a woman could have the full set of parts for a baby. Or a penis testicles and prostate to impregnate and fertilise an egg must be impossible.

If it were true then we need a new word for who we have thought of as a woman.

OP I'm now assuming you are here genuinely - sorry I didn't initially, as your post really does have a lot of the hallmarks of the people that come here to waste time and derail.

It seems a little mad, doesn't it - I have proper lefty friends who have been with me on 'let clothes be clothes', against the gendering of everything, yet who literally cannot say what the word 'woman' means when they're trying to 'be nice'.

Either a woman is a female person, and that's it, or a woman is a set of characteristics that female people may or may not have. As a wise woman on these boards once said - to say trans women are women is to simultaneously acknowledge and deny what a woman is.

I believe people genuinely want to be the other sex, and if treated as if they are, might resolve all sorts of mental issues.
I don't believe everyone has a 'gender identity', and if they do I don't believe it is interchangeable with 'sex'. For most parts of life, one's sex should be irrelevant.

For the parts of life where sex matters, it matters. Not gender.

These are the questions I ask on here that have never properly been answered in years, (except by what we would have called transsexual people who acknowledge that what they want to change is sex, and that there are issues with buying into 'gender').

• what is a woman? What is a man?


• what is a gender identity and how can I identify what mine is? (This usually ends up in a confusing conflation of sex and gender and sleight of hands re words). Is it broadly defined as 'masculinity' and 'femininity'? If so, those things don't need to overlap with sex.


• if sex is your physical body, and gender is a feeling, how could they ever 'match'? (Transgenderism is often defined as a mismatch). What would a feeling that matches a body be?

Hi OP,

I hope the first few messages didn't scare you away. It can be a bit overwhelming when you start to learn about this issue, and realise the cognitive dissonance, but stick around because this board is invaluable.

I was like you a few years ago - thought live and let live until I realised the implications of Self ID. And then I learned that Self ID was already the law in Ireland, where I'm from (snuck in by stealth by a government who generally don't give a shit about women). And then I got really fucking angry.

I understand the feeling of frustration when you try and talk about this in real life, and you generally get one of two responses - 'why are you being so mean?', or 'what's the harm?' On the one hand you'll be told it's a niche issue not to worry about etc. but on the other hand you realise that it is really important how women are legally defined, and this affects so many things we take for granted.

I just wanted to say also that your OP, and the first few replies to me shows in part why we where we are. I'm not trying to get at you, you sound like a lovely person, but you were so unsure of yourself and ready to apologise for existing that it was painful to read. Again, I'm not trying to be horrible, but it just shows how socialised women are to always question ourselves, and defer to others, and placate and make nice, even to our own detriment.

Unfortunately, it does us a disservice, as this kindness is being used against us. Trust your gut instinct - you know this is wrong, you know that men can never be women, and that if we allow our rights, our spaces and our language to be dismantled it will be women and girls that lose out. That's just fact, it's not hateful or bigoted.

I would also advise you to find your anger, because you are going to need it. When you lift the lid on all this and realise how far this has gotten, and how many people don't care about the effect it has on women and girls (including women who tell us were being mean and horrible), you will be full of rage. Welcome to the club.

who bloody cares.

My friends who are busy working and raising their family have to care, because their teenage daughter has decided she is a boy.

If you don't have time to care about trans issues and how they affect women then it's a puzzle why you take time to read and post on the thread at all. Why not spend the time posting on something you do care about?

@Sunshine10012 please stick around and read the responses to your post. We are all busy. I am busy finding replacement funding for a rape crisis centre that had its funding cut by about 40% because we do not include men in our facilities. No men, blanket no!

So I bloody care. I care about the raped and traumatised women who don't matter to national funding providers because they aren't men, don't want to include men in their therapy and won't include transwomen, as they too are men.

If you don't have time to do anything but post here that's fine, not everyone does have spare anything for political matters. But maybe try to understand that simply denigrating, sneering, at women who find time to protect women's rights only makes you look daft. Not at all clever!

Is it controversial to say that I would find it really offensive if someone referred to me by my body parts (eg womb owner).

…and presumably we would be using equivalent terminology for our male counterparts?

I mean, the fact that Stonewall can't even (consistently - they have contradicted themselves repeatedly) state that being gay or lesbian means being same-sex attracted should raise a few eyebrows.

But it's all brushed aside as standing up to "sexual racists".