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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please can someone explain like I’m 5

325 replies

Justdontgetit000 · 05/07/2022 23:29

I’ve name changed for this.

I feel very weird about the trans issues lately, something feels “off” but I can’t put it into words. I’m pretty left wing, very pro-choice, I consider myself a feminist.

I “hang around” online with others who have similar beliefs to me mostly, they are the ones I find myself agreeing with and wanting to defend. So I feel like I know where I am with most topics. Then on a forum I lurk on, someone got banned for saying they don’t want to be referred to as body parts. The person who started the thread (who is also a mod) said that when discussing Roe v Wade we can’t just say “women” we also need to say AFAB or “womb/uterus owners”. If we don’t our posts will be removed. I don’t post on there anyway so doesn’t affect me, but it rubbed me the wrong way.

I can’t articulate why, I feel like I’m in a place mentally where I SHOULD be fine with this because of all my other beliefs. Does that make sense? Yet I felt angry reading this. I don’t want to be offending people simply for using the word “women”. Then I feel guilty and like I’m transphobic?

I want to say I have no issues with any trans people, in that I’d have nothing but love and support for a friend for example who was trans, and would never ever be rude to or abusive towards trans people. Yet I get the feeling my mixed emotions towards all this would get me called a TERF. I know what that stands for but don’t really understand the term, I know a little of JK Rowling and her situation and I read that she got some awful messages after her controversial tweets, and that scares me. So I’d only talk about this anonymously.

Can anyone help me figure out, in a very basic way, what is happening in my mind and perhaps point me in a direction where I can learn more? I’ve tried to look for threads like FAQs about this issue but can’t find any.

Thanks for reading!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Toomie · 06/07/2022 00:25

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 05/07/2022 23:56

Chill. There's loads of us — socially liberal leftwing feminist women, environmentalist, pro-choice, anti-racist, anti-colonialist, anti-homophobe, practically perfect in every way by Guardian metrics — suddenly finding out in recent years what it's like to be considered one of the Bad Evil Oppressors. It can be psychologically destabilising if you built a lot of your identity around being a modern, tolerant, progressive person. You get used to it.

This. 100%. You get used to it

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 06/07/2022 00:27

OP, just wanted to say there are a lot of threads like yours which ARE disingenuous, which is why you got the initial reaction you got. But… most of those don’t manage to sound like women, even in written text! It’s actually quite funny. Anyway, I believe you’re an actual woman with a sincere question, you sound lovely!

you are quite right to be scared to ask questions under your real name, sadly. Trans activists will take their grievances offline, and go after your livelihood if they think they can bully your employer into sacking you. Read around a bit more, I definitely don’t want to dissuade you from being brave, but make sure you know what you’re getting into !

LordLoveADuck · 06/07/2022 00:30

@Justdontgetit000 Why are you paying attention to one person who by the sounds of it is not gender critical and is simply putting you down to shut you up?
Your questions are more than reasonable and understandable.Please don't let anyone ever bully you into silence. I imagine many women are or will face at some point a similar quandary so a thread like this could be helpful for a lot of people.

IcakethereforeIam · 06/07/2022 00:37

Like you're five...?

Okay. When a man loves himself very much...Smile

OP I hope you're sincere. If you are then welcome aboard.

Justdontgetit000 · 06/07/2022 00:38

purpleboy · 06/07/2022 00:19

Don't regret posting or feel silly asking.
Often on here, people start a thread with little to no posting history in bad faith, it's designed to get screenshots for the TRAs on Twitter, so naturally posters are cautious when threads like these pop up. I did exactly the same thing as you and got some similar responses, I didn't understand why until I had been here a while and seen it for myself. Don't take it personally.

Anyway stick around, lurk, join in, ask questions, it's all part of learning and it's a very complex topic with many facets.

Ah yeah I can see what you mean, and understand why it might look like that, it makes sense people will be wary. I wanted to come across as genuine as possible, but even doing that I can see why there would be skepticism.

Yes will definitely stick around to read more.

OP posts:
Justdontgetit000 · 06/07/2022 00:38

SecondRow · 06/07/2022 00:20

Yes. If any women are giving them their money after this, well, more fool them. It's, as you say, entirely deliberate and we do need to call it out and point it out to our friends.

It’s bizarre isn’t it? They are terrified to say “women”!!!

OP posts:
Justdontgetit000 · 06/07/2022 00:40

Bollindger · 06/07/2022 00:24

Macy Gray has insisted that "changing body parts" doesn't make someone a woman. I say , Same applies to a penis being made does not make a body male.
It is a biological lie.

Did you know that when a mans penis is removed, the root still stays with all the nerve endings and it hurts when aroused, Also the Designer Vagina never heals and has to be padded all the time to stop it healing closed.

Wow no I didn’t know any of this, I don’t know much at all about gender surgery, what it entails, what the results can be.

Is that on Twitter Macy Gray said this? She is brave! Will have a look.

OP posts:
Sunshine10012 · 06/07/2022 00:43

To be honest I don’t know where people find the time to invest In topics like this.
I’m far too busy to care. I’m not American, I’m not trans, I don’t know anybody that is. I work and Raise my family and live my life. Could be dead tomorrow so who bloody cares.

Sittingonabench · 06/07/2022 00:43

I think the major thing that came across in your op and replies is that you seem really scared of offending people or being misunderstood. This is not unusual but I would urge you to practice letting that go. Take up space -have an opinion while keeping an open mind - your entitled to that. You are not entitled to never be offended by anything and neither is anyone else. While I wouldn’t aim to offend someone if my honest beliefs do offend them - that’s tough. If theirs offend me I may challenge them but it’s also tough and its on me remove myself.

Justdontgetit000 · 06/07/2022 00:43

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 06/07/2022 00:27

OP, just wanted to say there are a lot of threads like yours which ARE disingenuous, which is why you got the initial reaction you got. But… most of those don’t manage to sound like women, even in written text! It’s actually quite funny. Anyway, I believe you’re an actual woman with a sincere question, you sound lovely!

you are quite right to be scared to ask questions under your real name, sadly. Trans activists will take their grievances offline, and go after your livelihood if they think they can bully your employer into sacking you. Read around a bit more, I definitely don’t want to dissuade you from being brave, but make sure you know what you’re getting into !

Thank you! I am indeed a quiet 40 something woman, stupidly polite in real life and very liberal in most ways. I’m not good socially 😅 Really appreciate your kind words.

This is what scares me, if you go against their views you’ll be labelled a terf/bigot - that’s not so bad and I can handle it, it’s the other things, being doxxed, actual threats. It’s terrifying and it only makes me have more admiration for those women who say it anyway.

OP posts:
Justdontgetit000 · 06/07/2022 00:47

LordLoveADuck · 06/07/2022 00:30

@Justdontgetit000 Why are you paying attention to one person who by the sounds of it is not gender critical and is simply putting you down to shut you up?
Your questions are more than reasonable and understandable.Please don't let anyone ever bully you into silence. I imagine many women are or will face at some point a similar quandary so a thread like this could be helpful for a lot of people.

I think because that was the first reply I got maybe. I’ve been wanting to make this thread for a few days, then wrote it all out, felt slightly brave. Then saw I had a reply and was pleased, then read it and thought “Shit, they hate me!” 😆 And wondered where I’d gone wrong. It just made me feel very small and pathetic and like I’d done something wrong. I just felt bad about myself which is silly I know.

Thank you very much for your kind words, I hope it’s helpful to anyone who reads it. I was going to report it to be deleted but that was an overreaction and my stupid ego being hurt. I’ve learnt a lot from these replies.

OP posts:
Justdontgetit000 · 06/07/2022 00:48

IcakethereforeIam · 06/07/2022 00:37

Like you're five...?

Okay. When a man loves himself very much...Smile

OP I hope you're sincere. If you are then welcome aboard.

Haha! I suppose I did literally ask!

Thank you! 💕

OP posts:
Justdontgetit000 · 06/07/2022 00:49

Sunshine10012 · 06/07/2022 00:43

To be honest I don’t know where people find the time to invest In topics like this.
I’m far too busy to care. I’m not American, I’m not trans, I don’t know anybody that is. I work and Raise my family and live my life. Could be dead tomorrow so who bloody cares.

Do you have any topics at all that you do invest any time or thought into? That’s how I and others feel about these topics. Same sentiment, different topics.

OP posts:
Justdontgetit000 · 06/07/2022 00:54

Sittingonabench · 06/07/2022 00:43

I think the major thing that came across in your op and replies is that you seem really scared of offending people or being misunderstood. This is not unusual but I would urge you to practice letting that go. Take up space -have an opinion while keeping an open mind - your entitled to that. You are not entitled to never be offended by anything and neither is anyone else. While I wouldn’t aim to offend someone if my honest beliefs do offend them - that’s tough. If theirs offend me I may challenge them but it’s also tough and its on me remove myself.

I love this, and you’re absolutely right. Your philosophy and way of thinking is what I aspire to be like but have always struggled with. I’m definitely a people pleaser and worry about offending others.

So you see, when I’ve found groups of people I relate to and who’s views align - like for example with covid, I relate to people who take it seriously and struggle to agree with anti-vaxxers for example, but then seeing those people be very pro-trans, but I can’t see it the same way, it’s confusing.

So I feel like a fraud among those people. Yet I don’t fit in with people who are very vocal against trans issues, as some of those tend to be also homophobic, racist, pro-life etc which I’m definitely not.

Whereas on here this board is the only main place I see these views aired but I wanted to understand the basics of it all. I don’t go much on Twitter anymore, maybe I should try looking on there more. Someone mentioned about Macy Gray speaking out so will have a look.

OP posts:
OhSister · 06/07/2022 00:56

Hi OP. Many many of us have been where you are.

The whole trans movement is heavily branded as 'progressive' and piggybacks on legitimate Civil Rights movements - especially the gay and lesbian rights movement, but also feminism, disability rights and racial justice.

For this reason people like me (and from the sounds of it, you) who see themselves as being on the 'progressive' side of the political divide initially swallow it all whole and fall in line with 'trans rights!' without thinking critically about what it actually means to shift the cultural and legal definitions of womanhood and femaleness (as well as manhood and maleness) away from biological, material reality, and toward belief in an innate, gendered 'identity.'

Eventually something happens that just feels off - it might be witnessing blatantly misogynist abuse from TRAs toward women asking reasonable questions; or reading an 'inspirational' human interest story about a little boy who is being prevented from going through puberty because his love of fairy wings made it clear to his parents that he wasn't a proper boy after all; or recognising the obvious unfairness of the inclusion of males in women's sports; or coming across language that is objectifying or dehumanising toward women - or which erases the concept of womanhood all together - in the name 'inclusion' or 'intersectionality', as if women aren't ourselves still fighting for inclusion at all levels of public life, and as if being born female isn't itself an axis of oppression that is as old as time.

And that thing that first made you feel that something's 'off' about this movement niggles at you, until you start to think... "hang on. What do they mean by 'thinking like a woman' or 'living like a woman'? Isn't that a rather sexist and outdated concept?" And you might think, "what do they mean when they want me to describe myself as 'c*s'...? That I'm female-born and also happy to live within the gender roles and expectations of women in our society? Because I'm not happy with all of that at all - that's why I'm a feminist - yet I still know I'm a woman."

And you start to look at all these people you've been told are awful and 'transphobic', but now you don't see them as 'privileged' 'cs' people with the audacity to have a view on 'trans rights'... you recognise that mostly, they are women* who have a view on what it means to be a woman and who are being told to shut up, sit down, choke on a dick, and die in a fire for daring to talk about it.

You realise that all the progress of the feminist movement - to which you and your sisters and daughters owe so much - was based on asserting the fact that what a woman is, is a human being with a female body and any personality, any interests and aptitudes, any role she damn well chooses and is able for.

And now along has come this regressive backlash, disguised as a progressive Civil Rights movement, which says the opposite: that a woman is someone with a 'woman' personality (now rebranded as 'gender identity'), and that the body - penis or vagina, XX or XY - is irrelevant to any claim to womanhood. And we are all supposed to be just fine with the idea that 'female' itself is now a type of personality, not a type of body. Womanhood is to be erased as a concept, or else redefined as being a roleplay; an expression in clothing and makeup; an adoptable and disposable identity. And any discussion about the implications of having female biology - such as how people with female bodies might be impacted by changes to abortion law - must refer to this half of humanity by their body parts and functions, because there is now no word with which to describe the formerly-known-as-female half of humanity as a distinct class of their own.

And as all this becomes clear to you, it's infuriating, and frustrating, and also disorienting and upsetting, because so much culturally and politically is divided as if between two teams, and you've always been team 'progressive' but now that you see how wrong they have got this particular issue, you can't unsee it. If you're very financially secure and/or very brave, you might publicly challenge what you now recognise as misogynist ultra-individualism in progressive clothing. But if you can't face the risks of being 'cancelled', you just wait in hope for more people to see it for what it is, and you are enormously heartened when you see progress in that direction, whether it's ordinary women like Maya, Kiera and Allison mounting legal challenges; famous people like Glinner, Jo and Bette putting their heads above the proverbial parapet; or new posters to the Feminism board saying 'this feels off to me... can you help me understand why?'

Summerfun54321 · 06/07/2022 01:01

The word woman is being erased but the word man isn’t. We are uterus havers but the men aren’t penis havers they’re just men. We aren’t allowed to be annoyed about it we must be silent. And so the oppression of women continues…..

Squiff70 · 06/07/2022 01:02

OP I get you.

I consider myself largely a lefty. I despise 'isms' (racism, ageism, sexism etc) and I am not homophobic or anything of the sort. I am, I guess, a feminist. However, I feel very differently about trans people, trans rights and where such matters are pushing certain aspects of society, particularly in terms of some of the trans community wanting everyone and everywhere to become so inclusive of their needs that people who are not trans are becoming EXcluded as a result.

Examples include:

Women giving birth is now PEOPLE giving birth
Pregnant women is now referred to as 'pregnant women and people'
Chest-feeders, not breastfeeders
'Womb-havers'
Mixed sex toilets in public spaces (massive safety issuesķ - particularly for women who have suffered sexual abuse, assault or rape who deserve to feel AND BE safe, as all women do)

All this is defeminising women. Our right to be referred to as the female species. If we started to demasculinise men, there would be utter riots.

In my opinion, this has gone way, way too far. I'm all for being inclusive but only when it doesn't cause harm, distress or suffering to a large section of society for no real reason other than to try and prove a point.

If, for example, a person who is biologically male wishes to transition as a woman, I'd expect them to want to protect women's rights, freedoms etc including words and actions which make females unique from males (see above). You either want to devote your life to living as a woman (in which case you need to see this from a woman's point of view) or else continue your life as male. You can't have a bit of both worlds, picking and choosing which aspects of femininity you prefer whilst expecting everyone else to adapt to your chosen lifestyle.

I'd better stop there!

Justpoppingintohelp · 06/07/2022 01:06

You might like to check out this paper. It just deals with the language issue and is quite clear www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full

Please can someone explain like I’m 5
LordLoveADuck · 06/07/2022 01:27

@Justdontgetit000
Sadly Macy Gray has walked back her comments and deleted her tweet,. Says people misinterpreted her:(

Katypyee · 06/07/2022 01:35

If you are looking to definitely learn and be open to learning, then this is not the place for you. Majority of posts I have read are not positive in regards to trans people; in particular trans women. More supporters of JK Rowling than trans people and trans women here. So don't post here to learn anything.

ReeseWitherfork · 06/07/2022 01:59

@OhSister 👏👏👏

@Katypyee curious answer, where would you recommend OP goes to unpick and understand her unease? Is there somewhere online that can justify the erasure of the word “woman”? I’d be interested in having a look.

SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey · 06/07/2022 02:15

In the context of Roe v Wade, you might find this article from the New York Times interesting. As feminists in the US look for all possible political and legal ways to ease the impact of the SC decision, the normalisation of the claim that "it's not only women who get pregnant", etc. cuts off avenues to claim sex (and/or gender) discrimination, lack of equal rights, etc., and to highlight the ways in which women's options, lives, and opportunities are systemically restricted on the basis of their sex.

A bit more blunt, but very clear and funny (not Roe v Wade-related): US YouTuber Karen Davis on the racism and sexism of this kind of language, and what she's learned from dealing with the backlash as a result of speaking out about it.

On the other hand, I happened to be in the US when the leak about the court's plans happened, and heard Gloria Steinem interviewed on NPR. She highlighted a favourite quote, Florynce Kennedy's "if men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." I did not see howls of "TERF!" at Steinem, despite the fact that of course men DO get pregnant, you bigot! Perhaps that would have put TOO much of a spotlight on the misogyny and anti-feminist backlash inherent in all this policing and silencing women speaking about women.

WarriorN · 06/07/2022 06:35

Hi Op, sorry you were given short shrift, we do get some ploppers who like to stir for screen shots.

I don't think the threads here now are as easy to follow as they were a few years ago regarding basic premise and starting points: break it down for me is an excellent read.

Personally I would get/ borrow Trans by Helen Joyce as she lays it all out so clearly, including the history of the idea of trans, key doctors etc.

Regarding "birthing bodies" dr suzanne forbes-vierling speaks a lot about the racist origins of gender neutral language in the US. She tracks it back to how female slaves were used as money, mortgages as their bodies produced more slaves. She also talks about how young girls are trafficked for the same reason etc.

Obviously that is the US; it's worth understanding that feminism is v different in the US to the U.K. there's a good interview by Benjamin Boyce with Julie Bindel on that
[[https://youtu.be/Ol8krO5SSdc

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achillestoes · 06/07/2022 06:39

OP, there’s nothing wrong with you. Most reasonable people agree - let trans people be who they feel themselves to be, but there is harm being done when people are forced to participate in a belief system they don’t share. We’re not “womb owners”. That’s harmful. We can’t force people to use particular pronouns and pretend people literally change sex. That’s harmful.

EdgeOfACoin · 06/07/2022 07:04

And that thing that first made you feel that something's 'off' about this movement niggles at you, until you start to think... "hang on. What do they mean by 'thinking like a woman' or 'living like a woman'? Isn't that a rather sexist and outdated concept?" And you might think, "what do they mean when they want me to describe myself as 'cs'...? That I'm female-born and also happy to live within the gender roles and expectations of women in our society? Because I'm not happy with all of that at all - that's why I'm a feminist - yet I still know I'm a woman."

This, for me, sums things up perfectly.

What does it mean to live as 'a woman'? What is this innate sense of 'being a woman' that all women apparently share?

When you've been on this board for a while, you will start to see that nobody can answer that question. Even trans people refuse to answer.

Ask yourself - why is it so difficult to define? If someone said to you "how do you know your biological sex is female?" it is easy to refer to certain body parts to explain how you know you are biologically female.

If you were asked "how do you know if you are gay or straight?" you can refer to feelings of sexual attraction for one biological sex or another.

But if you were asked "what is your gender identity?" what sort of things would you point to by way of explanation?

I can't possibly see how anyone can do that without resorting to stereotypes. The closest we come to is looking at the supposed indicators of a "trans child". And what do we see? References to toys and clothes. Look for early clips of Jazz Jennings on YouTube (when Jazz was a young child). Why was Jazz considered to be a girl not a boy? Because of an interest in dolls and a fondness for pink.

Since then, Jazz has taken many hormones, has undergone invasive surgeries and currently seems to suffer from quite a few health problems. And for what? Liking the "wrong" toys at the age of 3?