Please can someone explain like I’m 5

[Justdontgetit000]

I’ve name changed for this.

I feel very weird about the trans issues lately, something feels “off” but I can’t put it into words. I’m pretty left wing, very pro-choice, I consider myself a feminist.

I “hang around” online with others who have similar beliefs to me mostly, they are the ones I find myself agreeing with and wanting to defend. So I feel like I know where I am with most topics. Then on a forum I lurk on, someone got banned for saying they don’t want to be referred to as body parts. The person who started the thread (who is also a mod) said that when discussing Roe v Wade we can’t just say “women” we also need to say AFAB or “womb/uterus owners”. If we don’t our posts will be removed. I don’t post on there anyway so doesn’t affect me, but it rubbed me the wrong way.

I can’t articulate why, I feel like I’m in a place mentally where I SHOULD be fine with this because of all my other beliefs. Does that make sense? Yet I felt angry reading this. I don’t want to be offending people simply for using the word “women”. Then I feel guilty and like I’m transphobic?

I want to say I have no issues with any trans people, in that I’d have nothing but love and support for a friend for example who was trans, and would never ever be rude to or abusive towards trans people. Yet I get the feeling my mixed emotions towards all this would get me called a TERF. I know what that stands for but don’t really understand the term, I know a little of JK Rowling and her situation and I read that she got some awful messages after her controversial tweets, and that scares me. So I’d only talk about this anonymously.

Can anyone help me figure out, in a very basic way, what is happening in my mind and perhaps point me in a direction where I can learn more? I’ve tried to look for threads like FAQs about this issue but can’t find any.

Thanks for reading!

65% of women in jail have head injuries, i read on here.

65% beaten by some fecker so badly they have a head injury that can be seen on MRI.

and we leave them to be raped. By the state.

by the fucking state.

Ha ha, they're coming for the menz now. Let's see how that goes down with the penis owners.

Brilliant.

Thank you for this. I think you’re right, I hold my hand up to this, the notion of building our identity around being either “right” or “left”. I think it was since Covid and BLM that I started going on Twitter a lot and noticing a real divide. I found I was siding with the left more and more and felt I related to them a lot. I gradually stopped going on Twitter so much because it was a huge distraction so wasn’t really paying attention when Jk Rowling made her controversial tweets, but I noticed that “my people” were outraged, and I couldn’t really understand what she’d said that was so “violent” as they put it. I found myself agreeing with the likes of Laurence Fox and that wasn’t a nice feeling 😅

So yes what you said is very accurate, when you’ve built your identity around a polarising opinion of the world, it’s very jarring to find there’s a huge part of it you don’t fit into.

Thanks very much, appreciate this!

Also my previous post wasn’t meant to be being rude to Laurence Fox or those who support him, I just realised it may have come across as offensive. I just have a huge problem with his views towards covid and vaccines.

It's alright, you can say Laurence Fox is a massive bellend

Honestly, I don't know how we got to a point where having an opinion that another person also holds means you love that person and want to marry them and think everything that they think.

It's like saying you're a nazi if you are a vegetarian because Hitler also thought that. Just, primary-school logic.

Welcome to the club OP. It is really very discombobulating to know in your heart that you want the best for everyone and that you’ve spent your whole life promoting equality and justice to then realise that no one on the left (especially the men) value your sex or support your rights.

So many GC women have had the same journey.

Hi, can’t remember if I’ve replied to this post already but just want to say thanks for this, it’s very helpful. It’s really crazy isn’t it?

And thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt, I completely understand why you’d be wary.

I’ve done a lot of reading since yesterday and found a website called “Terf is a slur” which I’m sure a lot of people here may know, it compiles screenshots of actual online communications towards what people consider “terfs”. I had to stop reading some of the examples of violence towards women they’d like to commit. It honestly shocked me and made me want to cry. It reminded me of examples of incel communication and the way they feel towards women, so incredibly scary.

I can see that I’m right with my gut instinct that I’m too scared to voice these feelings with my real identity. I’m even too scared right now to say what I’m afraid of! I’d heard that JK Rowling had received a lot of backlash after her comments, but wasn’t prepared for the extensive screenshots of what people and actually said to and about her. What struck me most was how misogynistic the language was that they used. Once again it reminded me of very far right fundamental Christian and incel-type rhetoric. A true hatred of women.

So then this morning I went on some trans subreddits to “see the other side” because I want to read from all angles.
Anyone who comes across as a TERF will be automatically banned from most of these. They talk a lot about how high the suicide rate is among trans people and how terfs are responsible in part for this. They say that discouraging surgery and hormones is denying trans people life saving surgery so being gender critical is actually incredibly dangerous. Once again my guilt then crept in!

It’s fairly obvious to see that being gender critical (which I’ve come to realise I am as I wasn’t sure of the term for how I feel til recently) is not ok among some of the trans community, and will elicit an angry response, being banned, shut down from discussion and possibly being threatened.

Its so helpful to talk though this so I hope you don’t mind my rambling posts about it. I’ve really appreciated every reply and feel it’s so much to take in, but I want to understand as much as possible so I’m not ignorant.

Lol thank fuck for that - he really is sometimes! 😅

Yes we are so polarising now, you’re either team left or team right, and people have these set ideas for both and if you deviate from them then it throws the whole thing out of balance!

Also my previous post wasn’t meant to be being rude to Laurence Fox or those who support him, I just realised it may have come across as offensive. I just have a huge problem with his views towards covid and vaccines

He's an odious little toad who hides behind the concept of 'free speech' as if it means all speech is tolerant and reasonable. Free speech doesn't mean speech free of consequences. The consequence of his free speech is that he makes it clear he's a prick.

He's frequently said things that indicate he doesn't understand or recognise the reality of racism, is a misogynist who delights in publicly criticising and mocking women's bodies and is entirely out of touch with everyday people showcasing his entitled and privileged upbringing and adulthood.

No matter how much he (cringe worthily) plays guitar as if he's a tortured artist, and gets tattoos to try to look like a big brave boy, he's an absolute nobber with no idea of the experience of most regular people in the UK.

I don't think many people would have an issue with you calling him a massive bell end so don't worry

Don’t buy I to the rhetoric that GC are right wingers. From what I’ve seen most GCs are traditional left winger who are mostly already I volves in some way with women’s rights.

I also think that Laurence Fox is a twat.

Also, don’t buy into those bullshit suicide and murder stats. They don’t hold up to scrutiny but are parroted endlessly. Statistically speaking trans people are the safest section of society.

And GC doesn’t mean anti-trans. It means pro- woman and anti- gender constructs and gender stereotypes.

Well said.

odious little toad

Why is this such an accurate description? 🤔

Agree with everything you say, he has this obsession with free speech and isn’t intelligent enough to understand the origins behind that term and how it absolutely does not equate to “saying whatever the fuck I want on a privately owned social media platform”!

I also have noticed his attitude towards women and POC and it’s disgusting. An outright denial that racism is a problem, as if he would personally know or experience it.

And yes about his music career…

Oh ok interesting way of looking at it. I do think people assume anyone GC is automatically right ring, homophobic and hates trans people. Absolutely not the case as you said. It seems from what I’ve read so far to be about protecting women, not hurting trans women.

I mentioned the subreddits I found, and I also found a thread ( in a more mainstream sun) started by a GC trans women, who seemed very intelligent and knowledgeable. This is crazy but I don’t know whether to refer to him as he or she! I’ll go with he, because he said that he identifies as a trans woman but is under no illusion that he’s in fact biologically male and can never change that. He said he doesn’t mind if people refuse/forget to use his preferred pronouns and although he “presents” as a woman, he is a man and that’s fine with him. I found that really interesting and it was nice to see that some trans people are also GC. I naively assumed that most wouldn’t be.

Sorry for typos!

I actually also wanted to note that he was incredibly polite and open to debate, there were many people disagreeing with him, some very rudely and he wasn’t once rude back, he just kept standing his ground and stating that sex is something we can’t fundamentally change.

OP, if you have time, look up Ray Blanchard's research - he outlines two types of transsexualism typology - he classifies them as homosexual and autogynephilia.

(This message will likely be deleted as MN does not allow us to discuss AGP, as trans activists claim it doesn't exist.)
But here is a quick summary -
The homosexual type is usually the young effeminate gay boy who tends to be uncomfortable in the male role, feels more comfortable presenting as female and tends to transition early in life - like a Blair White. They generally accept that they are biological males.

The autogynephile is usually hetrosexual males who are sexually aroused at the thoughts of themselves as women. These men have often lives most of their lives as men, many have married and fathered children, there are heterosexual. For example: Bruce Jenner. There is a theory that this has become more prevalent in recent years because of sissy porn. These types are more likely to harass young female lesbians to date them, as they claim to be 'lesbians', even though they still have their penis attached.

The autogynephiles are more problematic for women because they need to be in women's spaces and groups and be validates as women to make their fantasy work. They tend to get angry or frustrated when reminded of the reality that they are not women. They are the ones really pushing for women's single sex spaces to be dismantled in the service of their fantasy.

The more you learn about it, the more you realise that laws are being changed in service of these men. Women do not want to be a prop in these men's fantasy. We say no.

Oh ok interesting way of looking at it. I do think people assume anyone GC is automatically right ring

I think the US and UK cultures are vastly different. In the US ALL my lefty friends are pro-trans. In the UK most are GC. I guess a few family members are on the right but they'd be casually misogynist and transphobic in the original sense rather than being pro-women's rights.

It's because Trump was so divisive and their left/right are so different from our right - we don't really have a deeply Christian right-wing demographic of any real size. There have been a few in the news but the other Christians that have been vocal about this have been the right-on, modern types like Oasis Academy, who Mermaids aligned with.

When I've talked at all about this online with intelligent trans people - usually me listening, not pushing any kind of GC views - the trans people are the first to say that gender is harmful bullshit. When it's a thoughtful person I'd say we probably agree on 90%, and just differ in how much emphasis should be put on sex or gender.

Yes, I think you'll find OP that being GC certainly makes for strange bedfellows, but we don't have to agree with everything a person says or does.

Also re: the murder statistics that are bandied about - they are based off of crime statistics from sex workers in Brazil. Yes, it is horrific that trans sex workers are murdered, but many female sex workers are also murdered in large numbers in Brazil, and the attackers are usually men. It is male violence in a country that has horrific levels of violence anyway. Also, it has no bearing of the life expectancy of a trans person in the UK.

To try and put it into context for you.

If you'd spent years working towards improving disabled rights in the workplace, to have someone come in and be totally able bodied with all the benefits that got them into the job, but pretending to be disabled one day a week, and getting awards for that, you'd probably care.

If you'd funded toilets for disabled people, who then couldn't use them safely, as they were being used by non-disabled people saying they identify as disabled, when they have perfectly useable toilets that they had previously used the whole of their lives, you'd probably care.

I could go on with almost every area of women's rights that now are being stolen by men, who say they are women. As we have no way of knowing if these men are 'genuine' trans, fake trans or indeed, not trans at all then it basically makes that space unuseable safely for all women and girls. Some women might want to say they can't see the problem, and that's their choice to make. Others of us think this is ridiculous, and that there was a very good reason for same sex spaces in the first place and would like to retain that. That's our choice to make. And it is the one that puts less women and girls at risk. So for me, that's the choice I'm making.

Thank you very much for this. I read something similar on the Break it down for me thread, but was overwhelmed and couldn’t really take it in. Will screenshot your post now in case it’s deleted.

So would you also say this AGP has something to do with the “cotton ceiling” theory too? This is something I came across last night and read a bit about. Like it’s a sexual fantasy for a man to “wear down” an authentic lesbian and would feel like some kind of victory? I have to say it makes me extremely uneasy to read that some trans women will call lesbians transphobic if they don’t want to have sex with someone who is biologically male.

Justdontgetit000
So would you also say this AGP has something to do with the “cotton ceiling” theory too? This is something I came across last night and read a bit about. Like it’s a sexual fantasy for a man to “wear down” an authentic lesbian and would feel like some kind of victory? I have to say it makes me extremely uneasy to read that some trans women will call lesbians transphobic if they don’t want to have sex with someone who is biologically male.

Yes, I believe so. Although much of this is conjecture, because of course they are not going to admit to being sexually coercive, as that makes them look bad. So they turn it around on young lesbian women, as claim that they are the ones being mean and hurtful by rejecting them. It's all a bit weird, but I think there is some sense of validation at breaking the 'cotton ceiling' and getting an actual lesbian woman to accept you as 'female'. Anyway, we are veering into dangerous territory here and may well end up getting this thread deleted.

That is another thing you will learn if you hang around this board enough - posts and threads that get a little too close to the truth, tend to get deleted as being 'not in the spirit of MN'. It's very frustrating to think that on a website that is mainly for women, women cannot openly talk about issues that affect us without being shut down or censored. It's worse on Twitter, where people who say 'men cannot become women' get permanently banned, and yet men who send rape and death threats to women are allowed to keep their account.

It's quite infuriating, so if you are new to all this, I would advise taking a break every now and then or you will just drive yourself demented. There is so much going on, and so much to take in, and it can feel like you are in the 'upsidedown' at times. Go easy on yourself, take breaks when you need to, and know that there are many of us now, fighting all this and it will take time, but we will keep going.
If you feel like you want to do something more, there are organisations like Sex Matters and others that are taking legal challenges that you can subscribe to and be kept updated. And crowdfunders you will find out about on here that you can support if you are able.

It helps me feel as if I am doing something more useful than just ranting angrily into the void.

Re suicide/suicidality:

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

Some evidence based discussion.

Nobody wants anyone to be suffering or upset. All the women I know who care about this issue care about being fair and compassionate, including to trans people. Much of the current situation misrepresents trans peopel and many trans people are what is called 'gc'.

TBH a lot of this is mischaracterised as women being concerned about trans people. While obvs trans people are involved in these issues, for me it's more about the filleting and removal of women's rights, by the removal and shifting of legal definitions.

In Scotland we have 'sex' and 'gender' sometimes being interchangeably used and sometimes used to mean different things. It's a wedge where women's rights can be leveraged out of existence. Words matter.

Hi OP,

It is really hard to confront the fact that you are now "the enemy" in the eyes of some of your tribe (even if they couldn't actually properly explain why) and, without trying to patronise you, I really applaud you for trying to think for yourself.

There really aren't many "TERFs" who hate trans people. That is not what being GC is - most of us dislike labels and stereotypes. Many of us are actually gender non confirming, or were as kids, and fear that our past selves would have been vulnerable to the ideology that we could opt out of female puberty and rid ourselves of the requirements and expectations involved in being female - those of us who are mothers are absolutely appalled that our younger selves might have denied us the option to have kids if we had chosen a medical route for ourselves.

The suicide stuff that is used to blackmail people is not very scientific, because there is a correlation between being trans and having mental health conditions and also with being non-neurotypical (particularly in girls, where the rate of trans boys is up 4000 per cent, but not trans men, suggesting that there are quite a lot of women out there who have found peace in being female given time). In some cases, being trans can be a reaction to feeling rejected for other reasons, a response to a difficult puberty etc. The suicide study that is most often quoted was a survey of 27 people. The studies following trans people over the long term to understand their health outcomes really are not great (Javid announced one a couple of weeks ago and many transgender charities seem to be opposing it - why?).

There are some studies out there showing that transition doesn't necessarily make a difference on the mental health side (and certainly not to all) - obviously, you could pin that on societal discrimination, but on some level I think that even if you transition quite fully and ban anyone from saying anything about biological sex ever, you do have to accept that you cannot change sex and accept yourself. Because you will be reminded of it (as a trans woman post op, you may have no bladder control and may have to dilate your vagina twice a day to stop it closing, you won't be able to give birth; as a trans man, your penis has to be pumped up manually and you will likely have no feeling in it; others may have preferences for someone who's sex matches their inherent sexuality from time to time; your childhood and earliest memories will be that of someone who was accepted as being of the opposite sex etc). You can see in the accounts of detransitioners (who are starting to come to the surface - for a long time academics have been denied funding to study them, even to understand which therapies benefit whom) that transitioning to what you thought was your "true self" doesn't always lead to self acceptance. I'm not saying that medical transition is always unnecessary or that others should be intentionally hurtful or remind yourself of your past constantly, but that it is actively mentally unhealthy to live in total denial of the reality of what sex you are born in, even for trans people.

I don't think any "TERFs" want to deny everyone access to hormones for ever. Most of us just think that in adolescents the brain is still in the process of maturing and are concerned about medicalising children who may not even be old enough to fully understand their sexuality. Or who may be traumatised for other reasons.

Most of us are in favour of third spaces and "open" categories (with closed female categories) in sport and other solutions. We are not people who deny that trans people should be treated humanely or who wish to exclude them from society. Frankly, if Emily Bridges wants to race against the men in a cycling race in full make up and a push up bra, I will be cheering her on - making space for gender non confirming men in our society within MALE spaces would be a very good thing. But we do want to ensure that the protections for females, which were extremely hard won and exist for good reasons, are upheld where they matter.

@Roseglen84
God this is shit.., you are right

**It's worse on Twitter, where people who say 'men cannot become women' get permanently banned, …

and yet men who send rape and death threats to women are allowed to keep their account.**

How is this allowed ?