Please can someone explain like I’m 5

[Justdontgetit000]

I’ve name changed for this.

I feel very weird about the trans issues lately, something feels “off” but I can’t put it into words. I’m pretty left wing, very pro-choice, I consider myself a feminist.

I “hang around” online with others who have similar beliefs to me mostly, they are the ones I find myself agreeing with and wanting to defend. So I feel like I know where I am with most topics. Then on a forum I lurk on, someone got banned for saying they don’t want to be referred to as body parts. The person who started the thread (who is also a mod) said that when discussing Roe v Wade we can’t just say “women” we also need to say AFAB or “womb/uterus owners”. If we don’t our posts will be removed. I don’t post on there anyway so doesn’t affect me, but it rubbed me the wrong way.

I can’t articulate why, I feel like I’m in a place mentally where I SHOULD be fine with this because of all my other beliefs. Does that make sense? Yet I felt angry reading this. I don’t want to be offending people simply for using the word “women”. Then I feel guilty and like I’m transphobic?

I want to say I have no issues with any trans people, in that I’d have nothing but love and support for a friend for example who was trans, and would never ever be rude to or abusive towards trans people. Yet I get the feeling my mixed emotions towards all this would get me called a TERF. I know what that stands for but don’t really understand the term, I know a little of JK Rowling and her situation and I read that she got some awful messages after her controversial tweets, and that scares me. So I’d only talk about this anonymously.

Can anyone help me figure out, in a very basic way, what is happening in my mind and perhaps point me in a direction where I can learn more? I’ve tried to look for threads like FAQs about this issue but can’t find any.

Thanks for reading!

Well this topic matters to me, and others.
We care about other women being hurt by what's happening, I dont mean physically, I mean when we cannot/are not allowed to talk about ourselves, name ourselves with words we have always used. We seem to be unable to even meet anymore. If we start a group solely for us, its infiltrated. Dunno about you but I strongly believe raped women should have a place to heal that does not include men (unless that's what they want, so choices)
I even more strongly believe that incarcerated women should only ever have single sex prisons. I believe it's all kinds of wrong to lock women up with men.
I believe that hospital wards should be as far as possible single sex.
I believe children should be left the fuck alone to grow up without unnecessary surgery.
I believe pronouns are forced speech, we dont live in a forced speech kind of country.
Al these and more mean I fight in the best way I can to make these things true.
Some days I could march for our sex, other days it's an email, when I can I donate to the very brave women who are taking these issues to courts. I am not as brave, so I do my bit. If I was the only woman in the world doing these things, I still believe I would be doing the right thing.
There are many more than just me and we all do the things we do for you and all the females in your family.

Hey, OP, don't leave or get your post deleted. Yes, this corner of the internet can feel a bit fierce at times, but a lot of the women here are pretty battle-hardened by this fight.

You're beginning to notice the misogyny that underpins gender ideology, and that can be both shocking and disturbing, especially if you're on the left, and socialised to be kind to people less fortunate than yourself. Do keep reading, thinking, questioning, and know that there are plenty of women willing to hold your hand through this journey.

Oddly, yesterday I was looking for information about, of all things, multiple hairs growing out of single follicles, and the top result was a webpage (Healthline? Something like that) which explains that this kind of hair mostly grows in penis owners' beards.

I mean, given that the demographic of "people who have beards" lies almost entirely within the demographic "people who have penises", it doesn't seem necessary to specify the penis part, but they did it anyway.

I just want to say I’m still here and haven’t flounced off or anything, fell asleep late and was then late for work so haven’t had time yet to properly read or reply to the recent replies. Will be back later to reply more, thank you so much to everyone who has taken the time to respond. These replies are so helpful and informative.

penis owners' beards

Ohmygosh 🤣

I own a penis because I have a male dog of which I am the owner. But I'm also a vagina-haver and a person with a cervix. DH has a pair of balls too, and we share all our possessions because we're married.

I seem to be in possession of lots and lots of various genital parts. Am I a woman or a man though?? Who the fuck knows, no one knows what one of those actually is.

Great time to be alive!

Yeah here we go: www.healthline.com/health/multiple-hairs-in-one-follicle#pili-multigemini

I was surprised to come across isolated bodypartification of men in the wild, while I was looking for something unrelated to gender, but I guess this is how the rest of the world will start noticing something's up.

Haven’t read the full thread, but explain it to me like I’m 5 is a good title!
3-4 yrs ago I was in a support group on fb for people with daughters with ASD (autism).
it was just after Hannah Gadsby had Douglas out on Netflix; she called JK Rowling a terf and said that was punching up.
I didnt Get the «joke», and just a few weeks after I enquired in this group what was terfy about stating biological facts?
At which point I got yelled at, and just like a 5 year old, had to say TWAW without qualifications to the statement. And then got booted out!

And since then I have discovered I am a terf, bigot and transphobe - and what a joy it is 😉

if people cannot accept biological facts, and whine that you aren’t inclusive when you talk about safe guarding issues in letting Tom, Dick and Harry into female single sex spaces, then they can fuck off. To the far side. Of fuck.

It is personal to me as a rape- and dv- survivor, as a Mum to boys and girls, as a Mum to a VERY vulnerable girl, and as a human.

XX means female means woman. It is your biology. It does not limit your intellect or make you love pink, but you may of course love pink anyway.

XY means male means man. It does not limit your intellect (even though sometimes I do wonder, and I worry for my boys), and you may still love pink.

I cannot identify out of my biology. No one can. Not even if you play sports and suck at it.

I think transsexuals with body dysmorphia should have access to health care, and in extreme cases surgery may need to be a part of that. Other than that; no.
I will call you by your chosen names and pronouns IF I remember them. Other than that; no. That does not make me transphobic, but if people want to call me that they can knock themselves out.

It's not even necessarily going to make trans activists happy. I'd be unsurprised to hear that transmen with beard hair develop a similar susceptibility to this particular issue, since beard hair is a secondary sexual characteristic that can be produced through hormonal treatment. Maybe I should contact Healthline and tell them their article is trans-exclusionary…

Insisting that people say AFAB and “womb/uterus owners” is a consequence of believing that "trans women are women" and "trans women are men" and it is an attempt to impose this belief system onto everyone. But it is not a belief system that I subscribe to and it's also a belief system that I judge has dangerous and regressive consequences for women.

To me, insisting that "TWAW" is like believing that "life begins at conception" and trying to impose this belief (and its consequences) on all women. And insisting people say "AFAB" (when sex is observed not assigned and it cannot be changed later in life) is like insisting that we all refer to embryos as "unborn children".

oops typo - "trans men are men", sorry!

To go back to the OP's original request, when I was newly-peaking this post was very helpful to me in understanding some of the basics.

medium.com/@BeaJaspert/im-coming-out-as-a-gender-critic-a4bf0d0cb3

You could also look up Helen Joyce on YouTube - she's done lots of interviews since her book was published, explaining some key ideas. And then, of course, read her book.

Here's a very ELI5 basic response.

Someone who says they're your friend but only if you do or say what they want you to is a bully not a friend.

Someone who says they are nice, but calls you names because you are upset or worried or scared is not nice.

Someone who claims to be tolerant but only if you agree to a set of beliefs and mantras is not actually tolerant.

If you find you are having to change your words or keep quiet about what you think so you don't upset your "friends" but they don't care about upsetting you that should tell you they don't care about you as much as you hoped.

Hi OP welcome to the naughty corner.

To summarise some really complicated stuff (as if you were 10ish)

All babies are born in the right body
All humans have a sexed body which is either male or female
girl is the word for a female child
boy is the word for a male child
woman is the word for an adult female
man is the word for an adult male

Every baby on Earth needed the co-operation of (at least) two adults to be born. One man and (at least) one woman. When grown up every human has the potential to provide sperm and fertilise an egg OR to contribute the egg and provide the environment for the foetus to grow large enough to be born.
Whilst some adults need help from doctors to help them have a baby, there is no human being now or ever that if they were sat in front of fertility doctors the fertility doctors wouldn't be able to explain whether they were male or female - whether they were the sort of person who could potentially provide an egg or the sort of person who could potentially fertilise an egg. So the words girl and boy, man and woman are just a straightforward description of the sex of body you're working with. There are medical conditions that mean those doctors will say but I can't help you because that bit of you doesn't work properly. There is no person now or ever who had functioning reproductive organs of both sexes.

Gender / Gender norms / Gender Stereotypes are terms that sum up the 'rules' in a society about how boys and girls should behave, dress and generally be treated differently. Sometimes there are good reasons for girls and boys to be treated differently, like girls having some privacy when they get changed for pe, or single sex toilets so women can deal with their bodily functions including periods with an acceptable degree of dignity privacy and safety, the law calls these "a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate end " but sometimes there isn't a good reason for the difference at all, like all girls school trousers not having pockets but all boys school trousers do. When the rules are unfair and stupid it is perfectly ok to challenge that rule I call these 'old fashioned nonsense'. People who break the rules are called "Gender non conforming" but to me that usually isn't a huge deal because I think everyone, and certainly every woman breaks these 'rules' to some extent at least some of the time. But the idea that women couldn't wear trousers or have short hair was considered old fashioned when your great grandmother was young.

So your sex is fixed and doesn't change but the extent to which you follow the rules of gender can be adjusted and fluid. These rules are different in different countries and can and do change over time. So personally I don't think treating the extent to which people follow the 'old fashioned nonsense' (the confusing and undefined) rules for girls / boys/ neither or switch between following the 'old fashioned nonsense' for girls on some days and boys on other days is important enough to make us ignore which sex someone is and I think that we & they can't ignore the good rules the one where there is a good reason to treat people differently based on their sex, the 'proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim' rules.

I hear people say things like it's ok if people don't follow the 'old fashioned nonsense' and I agree completely. I also hear people say things that sound really sexist and dehumanising to me (more of the old fashioned nonsense) and I reserve the the right to say "That sounds really sexist to me". I hear people say things that sound really homophobic and I reserve the right to say "Wow that's really homophobic" I hear people say things that sound like women aren't entitled to privacy dignity and safety i.e. even the 'good' rules shouldn't be followed and I think it's important to differentiate between the important rules and the nonsense ones. I hear people say we aren't allowed to talk discuss or even think about this and I think - "hang on! how are we supposed to come to sensible mutual decisions about which rules are good and necessary if we can't think or talk about it. " There is a line in a poem which says "as far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all people"

Many women here talk about the one line they realised they couldn't agree to without surrender. For me, it was that heterosexual men could declare that from now on they would pursue sexual romantic relationships with homosexual women. When I first came across this concept I never dreamt that it would become basically mainstream dogma that this fine, totally legit. AFAIC when stonewall and other 'gay rights' organisations agreed to redefine the words woman and lesbian and start prioritising heterosexual man over homosexual women they stopped being anything to do with gay rights and became men's rights organisations.

howdoesatoastermaketoast

Many women here talk about the one line they realised they couldn't agree to without surrender. For me, it was that heterosexual men could declare that from now on they would pursue sexual romantic relationships with homosexual women. When I first came across this concept I never dreamt that it would become basically mainstream dogma that this fine, totally legit. AFAIC when stonewall and other 'gay rights' organisations agreed to redefine the words woman and lesbian and start prioritising heterosexual man over homosexual women they stopped being anything to do with gay rights and became men's rights organisations.

Yes, I remember when men used to 'joke' that lesbians just hadn't met the right dick, and how they could turn them straight blah blah...the usual coercive bullshit.
Now that is being sanctioned and endorsed by Stonewall, basically saying that lesbians who refuse to sleep with biological males are hateful and phobic. It's madness.

@Roseglen84

for sure comments that were laughed at as old fashioned homophobic and clichéd 30 years ago are considered totally ok again.

not met the right man yet
x isn't / I'm not like other men
how do you know if you haven't tried it
We don't do anything you aren't comfortable with just have a drink with me...

I own a penis because I have a male dog of which I am the owner. But I'm also a vagina-haver and a person with a cervix. DH has a pair of balls too, and we share all our possessions because we're married.

😂🤣 Now you're just showing off.

Don't tell anyone, but I actually think I prefer it on the dark side.

I have to say, this post is like a lightbulb moment happening in my brain, and almost made me tearful! That probably sounds ridiculous, but it was just very moving to read. Thanks for taking the time to write it like that.

Yes exactly this, all those examples you gave are what I’ve noticed more and more over the past few months. I came across a very right wing commentator (can’t remember who) and she was complaining about the use of “chest feeders”, but the rest of her posts were a mix of downright misogyny and ultra religious extremism, so it’s difficult to have a conversation with people who agreed with her.

That’s a really good point you made as well, about the picking and choosing of which areas of being a woman you like and disregarding the others.

I realised that I was a bad 'un whilst still in Catholic school. Being a good girl was just too damn hard.

I don't want to alarm you, OP, but this is actual footage from the last coven meeting:

Same here, don’t have much time at all to actually do much, only really an hour or at most 2 per day to read/discuss issues, but this one seems to be getting more and more important.

I totally understand about wanting to protect disabled people’s rights, that’s another issue close to my heart.

That is amazing! 😂 Count me in, I’m ready for it! 🎢

'It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends'. - J.K. Rowling

This is an incredible post, thank you. I’ve heard of both intersectionality and group think, but embarrassed to say I’ve never understood them or put the effort in to Google and actually try to learn more. You’ve explained them both brilliantly and in a way that’s simple to understand.

And that’s exactly the conflict I’m feeling, the breaking away from group think and then some guilt from it which is frustrating!