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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What you all said was coming

533 replies

Pippinbird · 23/06/2022 22:24

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10947483/Anguish-young-man-sex-organs-removed-NHS-regretted-day-SUES-NHS

OP posts:
Datun · 24/06/2022 06:28

WalrusSubmarine · 24/06/2022 06:08

If the NHS are offering this surgery, then you believe this will help you and that you are entitled to it. If a doctor tells you this might help you, you are inclined to give it a try. If you are egged on online by your group AND told by society that anyone objecting is bigoted and hateful, then you are not going to listen to any dissent. If your therapist is worried about saying the wrong thing and is more passive then you will take this as a sign you are doing the right thing.

If there are no long term studies on detransitioners then there is nothing scientific to worry about. If even the LGBT community are saying sex doesn’t matter and can be changed and that same sex attraction is bigoted, then you won’t be supported to just be gay.

I feel so sorry for this person. It’s like he’s been funnelled to this and spat out the other end.

Exactly. He didn't have a hope. And the NHS is complicit.

Everywhere you look, they are adhering to exactly the same ideology that this man believed in.

Just last week removing the word woman from information about ovarian cancer. They pander to the ideology across the board.

McDuffy · 24/06/2022 06:28

Picked up by the Times too. I read the Twitter thread and can't believe he has to live like that Sad

Transgender patient says surgery ‘was biggest mistake of my life’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d80a3964-f348-11ec-b7b8-d1bfbe7f1c7e?shareToken=ebef52f721add450e4d2c2a85af754e3

user1498572889 · 24/06/2022 06:33

@FemmeNatal Man insists on having cock removed, says no-one told him procedure would involve removing cock.
So he got what he asked for then decided he didn’t want it so he is suing the people who gave him what he asked for. If they had refused in the first place would he be suing them for refusing?

TheCurrywurstPrion · 24/06/2022 06:34

”Surely he had enough brain cells to realise that amputation of penis and testicles {Or whatever is done} is going to render him literally a ''Eunuch'' as he states?
”It's basic common sense, surely.”

Presumably, he hoped he would wake up feeling like he was a woman. Instead, he realised he was never going to be a woman, but was still a man, only now he was surgically mutilated.

Back in earlier days, we are told that those who wanted this surgery went through extensive counseling about its limitations: that you would never be female, that it was cosmetic only, giving relief from the removal of body parts that were causing genuine distress and replacing them with something that would hopefully relieve that distress.

I suspect that is what’s been lost. The expectations people have are no longer realistic and the NHS likely now shies away from the brutal honesty about this procedure that has probably protected them from this kind of action previously.

it’s complicated because suing the NHS when it is already financially on the ropes is awful. But I’ve long thought that this entire movement would probably only be brought down when the medical negligence cases piled so high that they could no longer be ignored.

I think these procedures will eventually be seen as being as damaging as lobotomy. I think the swing against it will cause a significant backlash, which might go much further than it would have, had this not become so incredibly over-reaching. Those who have pushed so heavily to normalize, or even popularize this have created this monster. Having surgery to look like the opposite sex, if done at all, should always have been an absolute last resort for a tiny number of people.

MagpiePi · 24/06/2022 06:34

I think that the NHS is partially complicit in providing this kind of surgery, but I doubt he would not have been told that there were possibly negative outcomes?
He is an adult and if he was following a convincing 'script' in order to obtain surgery, then why would the NHS not believe he was sincere and understood the risks?

Datun · 24/06/2022 06:37

Having surgery to look like the opposite sex, if done at all, should always have been an absolute last resort for a tiny number of people.

Given that they have just proven that they are absolutely no judge as to who should have the surgery, and who absolutely shouldn't, I think there's a case to be had that it shouldn't be performed at all. Or at least not on the NHS.

Louise0701 · 24/06/2022 06:40

So he didn’t realise consenting to an operation removing his male sexual organs would leave him castrated? Really? What a load of shit. Now decided to sue the NHS surprise surprise. What a joke.

Louise0701 · 24/06/2022 06:41

@McDuffy well he has to live the way he decided he wanted to live when he consented to surgery….

EdgeOfACoin · 24/06/2022 06:42

He’s suing the NHS for a lot of money; money supposed to be used to treat people.

That’s why I feel little sympathy for him.

The detransitioner Keira Bell brought a judicial review to try to prevent under-18s from being given irreversible gender treatment. She was ultimately told that the right course of avenue for unhappy patients was litigation, not a judicial review.

This is what is happening here.

Obviously, this man was not under 18. However, it is very clear from whistleblower accounts that the NHS has not been doing its job properly when obtaining informed consent from patients or providing counselling to explore alternatives to physical transition.

The NHS has no business performing drastic surgery involving the removal of healthy body parts from people experiencing mental health difficulties. It should not be immune from being sued "because it's the NHS".

Concerns have been raised for a long time. The NHS should have listened.

I have nothing but sympathy for this man who was sold a lie and told (by the NHS) that physical transition would solve his problems.

I'm also expecting court cases in the US to start happening.

TibetanTerrah · 24/06/2022 06:46

The pandering to Mermaids and Co needs to stop. When in my NHS trust a woman cannot get her tubes tied because "you might change your mind" I'm not sure how this was allowed to happen.

Fuuuuuckit · 24/06/2022 06:52

"First do no harm"

In the UK, and on the NHS, I suspect that he himself had to argue forcefully and coherently about why the surgery was right for him, and that alternatives were offered which he rejected.

I was privileged enough to watch nearly 200 medical doctors graduate a couple of years ago. They all swore to do no harm.

I agree with pp that this poor chap would have fought tooth and nail, with coherent determination to get this surgery in the first place.

Gusfringrules · 24/06/2022 06:55

sadly, this is a result of the I want it and and I want it now lobby. Many decades ago when gender reassignment surgery was undertaken at CXH (one of the very, very few places that did it), the person wanter reassignemnt had to live as a woman for at least 3 years ( and that meant fully as a woman), have counselling every week while awaiting surgery, and various other steps undertaken. This was to ensure that the person really wanted surgery.
Then came the "I'm not waiting that long, I don't need counselling, I know what I want and I want it now' mob, who lobbied for faster times to surgery.
They won, this is the result

heathspeedwell · 24/06/2022 07:06

I feel intense sympathy for this poor man. I think it's important to remember that even as recently as five years ago this surgery wasn't being questioned at all. Partly thanks to Mumsnet, the more outrageous claims of gender extremists are being questioned but it was a different political landscape back then.

Posie Parker pointed out that Susie Green (head of Mermaids) took her 15 year old child to Thailand to have this surgery on the morning of their 16th birthday) on Twitter. Posie got a lifetime ban from Twitter for using the word 'castrated'. So instead of people being outraged that a child was being made permanently infertile and unable to experience sexual pleasure, at the time people were outraged with Posie for telling the truth.

Posie got investigated by the police, Susie Green got an extremely well-paid job heading up a charity that, in my opinion, peddles dangerous misinformation.

At the time young people were being brainwashed to think that if they didn't get this surgery then the only other option was suicide - despite the fact that according to the Tavistock Clinic, suicide of young gender confused people is 'vanishingly rare'.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/06/2022 07:12

The NHS should not be offering this surgery to anyone in the first place. It comes under the category of extreme body modification, not medical care. I have no issue with the NHS being sued - they should not have done and should not do this surgery.

QuebecBagnet · 24/06/2022 07:15

I think the problem is he probably did understand what the surgery physically entailed (and therefore may struggle to be successful with suing) however I suspect he thought the surgery would be the answer to his mental/emotional issues. And when he came round from surgery and realised that was all there and he was exactly the same as before but with an amputated penis he’s realised that the surgery wouldn’t ever be the solution he was looking for.

Maybe he’ll be successful if he demonstrates they didn’t counsel him enough?

hopefully it might put the nhs/other doctors off doing this surgery.

QuebecBagnet · 24/06/2022 07:17

But I do think the nhs would have gone through the risks, would have made sure he had adequate time between any discussions and the surgery so he had time to consider what he’d been told, etc. you have to fight for stuff like elective sections, sterilisation, etc.

TheGreatATuin · 24/06/2022 07:20

I really don't think its fair to blame him at all. The NHS isn't (or shouldn't be!) some quack service that performs surgery on demand.
And if you read his testimony, he didn't demand it.
He sought help for gender dysphoria from people calling themselves medical professionals within the NHS and was persuaded that it was the right course of action, despite his doubts.
A lot of people trying to do their research would turn to NHS advice and trust the specialists there.
They're not just turning up and demanding surgery. These are often vulnerable people seeking help who are being put on a medical pathway.
And this is the problem. The 'experts' are mostly self-appointed and ideology-driven, but if you don't know that, then you're going to trust that the specialist on the NHS is the expert.
Imo, there's little difference between this and a patient seeking help with mental health issues who is then recommended a lobotomy.
This was an utter travesty and the NHS completely failed him.
As others have said, this isn't going to be the last case. There are a lot of others who have been given unnecessary, life altering surgery.
Good for Tulip. Here's hoping this case will persuade the NHS to take a close look at what it's gender specialists are actually doing and more cases like this prevented.

Igmum · 24/06/2022 07:22

So desperately sad. The poor man. I suspect the real culprits were the internet support group, offering friendship and pushing him to transition. There are so many poor people in this position. I hope it makes the NHS think carefully about such drastic interventions.

Porcupineintherough · 24/06/2022 07:23

CherryReid · 24/06/2022 06:08

He withdrew into an online world where he felt at peace. There, at 23, he found discussions about gender dysphoria, the fear of living in the wrong sexual body. ‘That’s me, I thought.’

Quote from the Daily Mail article.

Seems he went down the online rabbit hole - believed what he read.
You cannot stop someone from doing this whatever age.

No, but there need to be some serious questions asked about the medical checks and balances that exist when this results in surgery. And yes it will be difficult because the websites that he was looking at tell people exactly what to say to the doctors to achieve transition.

@WiddlinDiddlin excellent post.

Rightsraptor · 24/06/2022 07:29

I'd just like to point out that in the UK suing someone does not necessarily involve the complainant asking for a shit ton of money in compensation. I've no idea about this particular case but as a general principle that is true. In the NHS any compensation does come from general funding so is taken away from services for the rest of us.

We can't be at all certain that this person was told the realities of his operation before it took place as we've seen many times how 'special' transgender stuff is and how it's held outside normal procedures and processes. We all know how safeguarding is thrown to the four winds, how no evidence base is required etc where trans rears its ugly head. Same here I suspect.

He could, of course, have attempted to find out for himself what it'd be like but his head was probably so full of dreams he wouldn't have believed it.

picklemewalnuts · 24/06/2022 07:32

For me, this is really straightforward.

If you have dysmorphia, you are by definition unable to give informed consent to major surgery to a healthy body.
It's like giving an anorexic a bariatric surgery.

The dysmorphia is not treated by colluding with it.

JustAnotherViper · 24/06/2022 07:33

Let’s talk about informed consent and what that looks like.

25 years ago my mum had breast cancer. It was fast growing and aggressive. She needed a mastectomy. She gave consent.

On the day of the surgery they redo taking you through the risks and expectations and what have you. Again she signs to consent to everything.

Her surgeon actually delayed her surgery to give her time to think about if she really wanted the mastectomy because he deemed her too upset to be fully capable of consenting in that moment.

A surgeon performing a surgery that she would die without still needed to reconfirm consent because he felt she wasn’t ok with the outcome/risks. And he waited until he felt he did have that consent.

That’s what informed consent looks like.

Not ‘doing your own research’. Not ‘well you asked for it so you must understand what you’re getting’.

A compassionate professional or professional team explaining exactly what the surgery involves, the risks, the possible outcomes, what you will and won’t achieve. Giving time and space and the safety to say no at any stage. Not performing that surgery unless they are sure you understand exactly what is involved, that you’ll cope with the consequences, that the reward is worth the risks (medically and personally) and that you are physically, emotionally and mentally stable enough to consent.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 24/06/2022 07:37

picklemewalnuts · 24/06/2022 07:32

For me, this is really straightforward.

If you have dysmorphia, you are by definition unable to give informed consent to major surgery to a healthy body.
It's like giving an anorexic a bariatric surgery.

The dysmorphia is not treated by colluding with it.

I agree. I've never understood how it's become an acceptable thing to do.

I also agree with whoever said how depressing it is to realise that homophobia is still such a big influence in all of this, internalised or otherwise.

COPPER3 · 24/06/2022 07:40

NHS should not be funding this!

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 24/06/2022 07:41

JustAnotherViper · 24/06/2022 07:33

Let’s talk about informed consent and what that looks like.

25 years ago my mum had breast cancer. It was fast growing and aggressive. She needed a mastectomy. She gave consent.

On the day of the surgery they redo taking you through the risks and expectations and what have you. Again she signs to consent to everything.

Her surgeon actually delayed her surgery to give her time to think about if she really wanted the mastectomy because he deemed her too upset to be fully capable of consenting in that moment.

A surgeon performing a surgery that she would die without still needed to reconfirm consent because he felt she wasn’t ok with the outcome/risks. And he waited until he felt he did have that consent.

That’s what informed consent looks like.

Not ‘doing your own research’. Not ‘well you asked for it so you must understand what you’re getting’.

A compassionate professional or professional team explaining exactly what the surgery involves, the risks, the possible outcomes, what you will and won’t achieve. Giving time and space and the safety to say no at any stage. Not performing that surgery unless they are sure you understand exactly what is involved, that you’ll cope with the consequences, that the reward is worth the risks (medically and personally) and that you are physically, emotionally and mentally stable enough to consent.

Good post. And this is why any surgeon performing a double mastectomy on a minor child for gender-related reasons should IMO be struck off.