Waitrose delivery driver

[MsMoorhead]

Kellie Jay-Keen reported by her Waitrose delivery driver!

I can buy the argument that a sign in the window is a starting point for small talk

He was (i) delivering groceries and (ii) he knew what the sign meant. He was picking a fight. Somewhat like "so what's cross mean in your window?" "Oh, are you a Christian? I'm an atheist and I find your sky Daddy offensive ... No need for either conversation.

@StopStartStop I wrote to Waitrose too. I got a stock response "Thanks for getting in touch, your email is important to us and we’ll come back to you as soon as we can – your case number is...". My point was that I don't think Posie complained until after she got the letter (but maybe I am misremembering or missheard). I thought that the timeline was: incident - complaint from driver to his bosses - letter from waitrose to posie - posie replies pointing out her side of the incident.

From what I can make out the driver should currently be being investigated for

(a) bringing politics up on the doorstep.
(b) Arguing with a customer.
(c) Misogyny and being a creep (re teenage daughter and changing room).
(d) Maliciously and dishonestly complaining about the customer.

But that investigation should only be happening as a result of what has happened after the letter from waitrose to posie. And to be fair I don;t blame them for writing based on their driver's account. They had no reason to see it from Posie's point of view because they had no reason to suspect that Posie was in the right, given she had not complained about the delivery driver at that time.

Sorry, I meant that for an average delivery driver seeing the sign, using it as a starting point for small-talk and then changing the subject if it becomes obvious that this is a political matter the driver can't agree with the customer on, seems an entirely reasonable way for a delivery driver to behave. I have no problem with a delivery driver "small-talking" about a sign in the window.

But you are 100% right that in this case the misogynistic male delivery driver clearly wanted to pick a fight and that is completely inappropriate. This man knew what the sign meant, he knew that he completely disagreed with Posie, and as a result he should have completely avoided the subject, because Posie was buying groceries not inviting morons onto her property to be patronised and insulted by them.

"I have to say that there is little that annoys me more than companies or their staff who try to silence complainants because the complainant is so angry and frustrated that they have sworn."

Here's where I draw the line:

For fuck sake, this is shit. Understandable, no warning.

You fucking idiot, you're so shit.
A personal attack and not acceptable.

I have the benefit of reviewing recorded calls, and can make decisions I feel comfortable with, based on the precise facts. It must be harder when complaints are made about face-to-face interactions with no recording.

So this person knows where she lives and has tackled her on a very controversial subject in her own home where she was paying for a service. If she’d had a religious symbol or a political sign this driver would have had absolutely no business Challenging her on that either.

This person needs a lesson in professionalism and boundaries.

And where did you get the idea that she attacked him personally @respectmysex?

She said she told him to leave her property using colourful language. I would have thought that would have been along the lines of fuck off my land.

I have seen KJK confront TRAs on a number of occasions and she has never resorted to personal attacks. She doesn't need to.

Regardless of anything else, no company should employ a delivery man who refuses to leave a woman’s house promptly when asked to do so. “I’ll take my time” is as pretty close to threatening. I would feel intimidated, and with good reason.

Just to be clear, I'm only commenting on how difficult it is as an employer to deal with complaints from staff about abusive members of the public. It is very one sided and unlikely they would proactively contact the customer for their side of the story.

In contrast, I've had a particular member of staff complain consistently about racism from callers, and that they have no choice but to hang up when they do it to them. I reviewed the calls and can honestly find nothing in it. Racism from customers does happen, but this advisor IME (20+yrs) isn't experiencing it. I have 5 dismissed complaints now where I could not find anything but 1 upheld complaint that was IMO flimsy.

The customer tutted and said I can't understand you, then waited for the advisor to repeat themselves. This was cited as racism and I absolutely felt pressure to uphold this due to all the other complaints I'd dismissed. Nothing happened to the customer, no warning, no contact from me or the company. That would be outrageous. It was just an acknowledgment that the advisor, on that occasion, had flimsy justification for hanging up on the caller and therefore it wasn't added to the disciplinary file dealing with all the other times they had hung up on callers without justification.

But they were aware of the incident from 9 May.
They've had almost a month to 'investigate'.

They certainly had no right to write to KJK in the way they did.

It's just about acceptable for the driver to have commented on the signs along the lines of "what's all that about then" and then had some common sense to change topics or make non committal responses once they realised it was political and that they were of an opposing opinion. In this case though it seems likely that the driver knew what the signs meant, or suspected, and chose to engage in a discussion regardless. And then chose to continue a disagreement rather than back off and just do their job.

@StopStartStop My apologies if I have misunderstood the timeline... my impression was that Posie had just got the letter and had just written back and that Waitrose could / should respond to the counter-complaint within a week or two.... not least as Waitrose are presumably getting a fair few email with random people saying "what are you doing about your staff member who gets into political arguments and tries to bully customers?"

For anyone reading this who hasn't listened to the video, the above post is not verbatim and isn't an accurate account in that it put in bits, left out bits and moved some about, creating a faulty rendering of who said what when and a false impression of what happened, ending with accusations against Kelly Jay Keen which aren't reflective of the actual encounter.

I have seen KJK confront TRAs on a number of occasions and she has never resorted to personal attacks. She doesn't need to.

Yes, I've noticed that she doesn't swear. I don't know if she doesn't swear in real life, but she makes a point of not doing so publicly.

If this person was trans, them asking Posie what was on her T-shirt was, of course, going to be goady.

Her answer was what her answer always is. TWANW. And, for the poster upthread who doesn't get it, she is within her extremely hard fought for legal right to say so.

Perhaps the driver had not encountered a woman who doesn't give a flying fuck before.

Either way, it's completely inappropriate to attempt to engage her on a political viewpoint with which he clearly disagrees.

And deliberately intimidating her by saying he would leave in his own time, is completely unacceptable.

All my drivers (from 4 different supermarkets since lockdown, none of which is Waitrose) talk about the weather or international football or the road conditions or how busy the job is that day. They do the delivery politely & helpfully, & then they leave, whether it's me or my husband who answers the door. There's a decorative poster about a certain country in full view of the front doorstep, which might have been controversial at one stage: not one driver ever mentioned it.

Perhaps Waitrose need to train their staff up to the level that other supermarkets do?

I've had numerous Waitrose deliveries. None of their drivers have ever commented on on my political beliefs, my clothing or anything else of a personal nature.

Tell us you're male without telling us you're male: 'I'll take my time'. Physically aggressive. The rest is irrelevant.

And that's how it should be.
This one was different.

Jesus, Waitrose can get to fuck . That's my order cancelled.

Discovereads

If I was a delivery driver and went to house displaying a trans pride flag would you think it was OK for me, as someone with GC beliefs, to start a conversation about the flag and why I think gender ideology is harmful. Would it be reasonable for me to tell the householder, "I'll take my time" after I'd been confrontational enough for them to ask me to leave?

KJK was far more patient than I would have been. If you're employed to deliver groceries then you should do just that. I'll make small talk and treat you with respect as a matter of habit and good manners but if you try to start an argument with me on my own doorstep then you'll be told to fuck off pretty quickly.

Ah yes. I'm glad more than one of us has spotted this and taken issue. I had just listened to the video and with it being fresh in mind, it leapt out at me that someone was taking liberties and how misleading it is.

@Discovereads "btw deliberately misgendering a trans person is not only rude but a hate crime in Canada"

Given KJK lives in England, where so-called "misgendering" has no relevance in any law or in any other sphere of anyone's life, what happens in Canada is irrelevant.

I am no fan of KJK, but this is frightening. If I was in her place I would be traumatized and not want any service men in my home.

The delivery driver needs training. Like pps have said, it's inappropriate and unprofessional for the driver to question belief on the doorstep with a customer, same with the many people who have a cross or other religious symbol in full view.

In this country GC so called 'beliefs' are worthy of respect in a democratic society anyway.

Given KJK lives in England, where so-called "misgendering" has no relevance in any law or in any other sphere of anyone's life, what happens in Canada is irrelevant.

Except as a cautionary tale as to why we need to be standing our ground and not letting this stuff get any further.