Waitrose delivery driver

[MsMoorhead]

Kellie Jay-Keen reported by her Waitrose delivery driver!

In no other area of psychology do we need to "validate" someone's belief about themselves.
Gender "affirmation" requires me to cede to your inner belief of who you are even when this is in direct contradiction to objectifiable and observable reality.
I can see that a person is a biological male. They may feel differently inside, who am I to argue? What they CANNOT feel, is like a woman, because they have never been one and therefore have no basis on which to align with that identity.
I will not be compelled to use language that I do not agree with based on someone else's feelings. What right do people have to think they can go through life without anyone ever objecting or disagreeing with them, and not only that, but to attempt to FORCE people to align with their beliefs or face the consequences.
I would never affirm an anorexic by agreeing with them that they were fat. This would probably hurt their feelings too. I wouldn't agree with a paranoid schizophrenic that there were voices coming from the TV. This might also hurt their feelings. I'm not going to agree that a man can become a woman because I know it's not true. And that probably hurts their feelings but that's life.
In the case of KJK, she is entitled to express whatever the hell she wants to in HER OWN HOME. If someone want's to challenge her posters/merch/T shirt, she is allowed to express her belief that TWANW.
As far as this whole incident I would not be surprise at all to learn that it was a set up. What are the chances of a TW delivery driver delivering to a hugely prominent Women's Rights campaigner who is spearheading the TWANW / Adult Human Female campaign? Of COURSE she is known to people who are familiar with the debate and a TW is bound to know who she is and what the posters meant. It was a deliberate and in my opinion, engineered, challenge on her own property.
The "I'll take my time" comment is a definite intimidating threat and anyone who says it isn't is either being deliberately obtuse or is a little dense. The delivery person was asked to leave. They didn't leave immediately. That is threatening and using an implied power over someone else to force you will over theirs. We have somehow got to the point where it is acceptable to intimidate a woman in her own home/on her own property, and yet, SHE is the one who is chastised. It would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous.
I agree that there is no such thing as mis-gendering, because gender does not exist in an objectifiable and measurable way.
SEX however, is real. We base laws and legislation around it, we separate humans because of it where needed, we treat human bodies differently in medicine because of it. It is a fact though some might wish it were not.
SEXING people (correctly) is not transphobic.
If I don't buy into your quasi-religious doctrine I'm not compelled to share your intangible beliefs on the matter.
Because as much as some people scream and stamp their feet, biology is real, sex matters, facts are facts, and men cannot become women in any sense.

What's the difference between a trans ally and a tra, sorry if I'm interrupting btw?

Hence the awful, albeit honest, quotes of people like Grace Lavery, Julia Serano, etc.

Don't forget Long Chou ....

distilling the femaleness to its barest essentials- an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes.

Such great respect that these males have for females. And they are supposedly 'identifying' as females with this much hatred.

I wonder how this gets woven into a coherent and 'stable' definition of gender identity?

I believe so.

Along with the memorable, and patently not true, "to be the victim of honest, undisguised sexism possesses an exhilarating vitality".

Do you agree with that Discovereads ? That Lavery's gender identity translates into a yearning to be the victim of undisguised sexism?

It's hair colour, isn't it?

VERY INFORMAL DEFINITON
Ally - I am prepared to have a pint in the pub with my friend even when they, perhaps especially when, they drew attention for their unconventional dress.
TRA - the person/people that persuades management that everyone at work should be announcing pronouns at the start of meetings despite this being a terrible idea for many many reasons. The people who persuaded the courts (and newspapers) that the victims feelings were less important than the rapists in rape trials.

Having read the entire thread I have come up with two points.

1/ this wouldn't have happened if the driver had STFU and just done the job that they were paid to do.
and
2/ KJK didn't mis gender the driver she was invited (by the driver) to state what she thought/knew the drivers sex was.

Great post @BoredofthisCrap7

Seconded, excellent post @BoredofthisCrap7 agree with everything you said and you say it well.

If we had asked last night for a volunteer on this thread to give me a personal explanation of the functioning of the internal combustion engine, the processes performed by the human pancreas, or the lifecycle and behaviour of the small tortoiseshell butterfly, we'd have been given it by now. The minds of the mumsnet collective cover all subjects between them!

It's just gender identity that we get tumbleweed on...

Well shite, no holy grail.
Such a shock I tell ya. Really was rooting for a useable definition.

Just for loiterers and the interested, we all knew no such definition was coming.
And more, it's hardly derailing (more like merailing) a thread about a subject to then go on to a very very similar subject.
If you hang around here long enough, loads of threads go well off piste. We are famous for brilliant recipes here on fwr. I mean we are banned from doing that any more, but there are other sections.

@toastfairy thank you.

An ally isn't necessarily an activist, they're just an ally.

There is a term, two words first starts with a U, second with an I. They are the ones wheeled out to face the flak and ditched the minute they've served their purpose.

Ah! Cannonfodder.

I'm slowly working my way through this thread but the idea that anyone engaged in trans ideology would be completely unaware of the slogan Woman: Adult Human Female or who KJK is, or what she looks like is utterly laughable.

If lesser public facing feminists such as Julie Bindel and Kathleen Stock are recognisable in the street by the average TRA, I would bet my house that someone who is frequently on telly and who has such a distinctive look would have in no way escaped TRA knowledge.

She has an unusual name too (I mean KJK not PP), so it's going to be clear upon seeing the delivery list that it's her.

I thought of this thread again today when I had a grocery delivery. I opened the door to two grinning blokes, who told me they had been making guesses about what "all the ladies" on their round would look like, and described how they had pictured me and how I matched up. As I didn't feel inclined to let them in (being home alone), I just unloaded the boxes on the doorstep, while they did a bit of gentle leering and made mildly flirtatious comments. It was obviously a minor incident but it brought home how vulnerable a woman can feel when opening the door to a cocky delivery driver (or two) who makes personal remarks.

I'd email a complaint if a delivery driver was behaving inappropriately. You won't need their names, just the store details and your delivery time - they'll be able to match them on the system. I'm done tolerating shitty behaviour. If it means they'd lose their jobs, that's their own damned fault.

Ps stop minimising it. Their behaviour made you unable to feel it wasn't safe letting them into your home. You did part of their job for them. Stop bloody minimising it.

@Belovedfool

Oops double negative. Made you unable to feel it was safe, that should read.

Argh, posted too soon! Was going to say: thank you, yes I did consider making a complaint. It was more weird than anything (which can obviously be a threatening thing in itself) - like I'd travelled back in time to the 1970s or something. The main guy was of that generation, but even so! You're right to say not to minimise it - I suppose at the same time I don't want to exaggerate its significance either, but it really brought home the physical power dynamic between men and women. Can you imagine if the roles were reversed - the man would just laugh or feel flattered. That's why some men just refuse to get this.

The way I interpret behaviour like this is it's dehumanising. Immature, irrelevant (who gives a toss about what a delivery driver thinks of your appearance? Yet they felt you ought to know...why?). Different shit from original post, but also the same shit. Men behaving badly. I am so fucking tired of it.