Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 9

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Allison Bailey - claimant

Witnesses for the claimant:

Nic Williams - Fair Play for Women
A Woman's Place
FiLiA
Kate Harris - LGB Alliance

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC
Kirrin Medcalfe - head of trans inclusion Stonewall
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC and in charge of writing report on AB/complaints
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC

Current Witness - Charlie Tennant - Clerk at GCC

To come

Luke Harvey - Clerk at GCC
Louise Hooper - Clerk at GCC
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge

haven’t been able to follow for a few days … what have I missed??

I do wonder though, how much this comes down to the beliefs of the EJ and her panel. Has there ever been a circumstance when someone of the TRA persuasion has been successfully convinced of the arguments of a GC case? (or vice versa?)

I think Iknowitisheresomewhere has found the source of the discussion in the tribunal about the 124, not 174, sexual assaults:

Male prisoners who were transferred to women’s jails during gender reassignment and women inmates who are transitioning committed seven of the 124 sex attacks recorded between 2010 and 2018. They occurred at HMP Low Newton in Co Durham, Foston Hall in Derbyshire, Peterborough, Bronzefield in Middlesex and New Hall, West Yorkshire.
...
The Ministry of Justice said: “Since 2010, out of the 124 sexual assaults that occurred in the female [prison] estate a total of seven were against females in custody perpetrated by transgender individuals.” It is not known what gender the attackers had been born.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg

DR's point is that of the "seven ... perpetrated by transgender individuals" most of those would have been carried out by Karen White.

I only watched the very beginning of that video that @MagnoliaTaint shared. In it, his website and Twitter account are linked. His website is very limited but has a live Twitter feed.

He last tweeted three hours ago. The Twitter account no longer exists.

Here is the FOI:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/902685/FOI_200513008_assaults_involving_transgender_prisoners.doc

For intelligent people there's a lack of curiosity and robustness of thinking.

Right, but that's survivorship bias, or whatever you call it. Or at least the opposite of it.

Given the strength of our and Allison's position, for them to end up here in this employment tribunal, they needed that lack of curiosity and robustness of thinking.

If they weren't like that, we wouldn't be watching them today.

If they weren't like that, we wouldn't be watching them today.

But I guess the really disturbing thing is how common this has turned out to be. It's not just "a few bad apples".

Thanks all, have been catching up with these threads and TT in the evenings, really appreciate all your comments, wit and wisdom.

This exchange from TT really stood out:

BC: u know she's victim of sexual assault and women, all too many, are concerned about their spaces
DR: even women with those experiences.. that this is somehow revictimising it is just not

It's amazing to actually have a man, a barrister, in court, openly showing this much disrespect for what women are saying. It's entirely unacceptable to hear victims of past sexual assaults say it revictimises them and just dismiss it with 'it's just not'. WTAF? That's all they have isn't it - we're silly and just don't understand, we shouldn't feel how we feel and should instead 'reframe our trauma' and accept penises in our spaces if their owners feel they possess special 'female penis'. Sorry, pure rant, but that exchange just hit the nerve

Thanks nauticant, I looked at the 'most of those [124 assaults] would have been carried out by one person' and thought, 'wait, what?'

I find it highly unlikely, given the FOI, that DR can know with any certainty that any more than 2 of those assaults were carried out by KW, because the FOI asks that question and the MoJ refused to respond.

I hate this.

That someone can stand up and say something in court that cannot be refuted there and then, but can easily be found FROM THE SOURCE with a 5 minute google to be 'not quite as he said it'.

From my experience and those of many of my friends, Swappy enthusiasts at university unite often used their position to sexually assault women. And because they were so revered, the women they assaulted didn't speak up. I think any group which makes mini heroes out of the outspoken attracts men who will seek to use thar position to exploit others (please note the difference Mr Renton).

How do seemingly intelligent (or at least expensively-educated) middle-aged men fall for gender-woo? Is it misogyny, pure and simple? Is it the desire to be woke and cool? Is it the need to get non-masculine men out of the cohort masculine men? Is it truly believing it's gay rights all over again or going along uncritically with the born-in-the-wrong-body nonsense? Is it loyalty occasioned by having very close friends or relatives who identify as trans?

Whatever it is, it can't be clear, rational thinking. It has to be something else.

Renton really is a turd of a man, wriggling like a worm on a Cooper hook (i did like it when Ben got quite stern).

The framing of Allisons view as every time an accommodation is made for transwomen she objects. NO! Every time she points out how this impacts on women and girls. She is pro women not anti trans. And he just cannot get his head around it.

I am wondering what i would do if i heard a colleague really trashing my employer and threatening legal action. I am relatively senior, part of me would feel a duty to escalate. If they were spouting an ideological position i happened to disagree with, i suspect that may tip me towards reporting. If i agreed with them, i would probably keep schtum.

Whatever it is, it can't be clear, rational thinking. It has to be something else.

To a large part, I think it's what it often is. I think they think it'll get them laid. Women in their social circles are into all that equality shit, so it's a form of mating ritual. Signalling your self as a "nice guy".

A point was made today by a witness about how unreasonable it is to have LGB organisations that don't include the T.

Why, then, is it perfectly fine to have myriad T organisations that don't include the LGB?

That might be strategic to remove temptation to talk about the case while giving evidence and to make sure that he is seen to be removing himself from the public sphere.

I think a person like that would struggle to stay silent for too long while there's an opportunity to publish and hold court.

Women in their social circles are into all that equality shit

(At least, the hot young ones).

Nothing about any of this makes sense!

I haven't been watching live just tweets and this board.
Is this impression correct?

• loss of work not really proved so far, especially as argument that clerks tried to get her in front of new solicitors but she turned down low level work (that should have then led to higher level work)


• however unbelievable clerks wouldn't have heard/discussed gossip re AB so if they are covering this up are they also covering up not giving her work


• absolutely blatantly obvious that GCC didn't investigate complaints about AB in a fair way, with tweet being totally egregious


• GCC and Stonewall views very enmeshed together, STAG(?) and Head of Trans complained, so really Stonewall at least partially liable for this mess

Spot on. It's the supporting actress thing again.

I can't remember who said that women's lives exist to facilitate others.
This white hot misogynistic twat is a prime candidate for that.

Necessary Scene
Glosswitches most recent newsletter landed in my inbox today and talks precisely about this.

Had a call to make so just catching up. This has given me a really good laugh which is just what was needed so thank you.

Maybe the link between sex crimes and poverty is that he believes all men should have assess to 'sex workers', and being poor deprives them of their right to purchase women for sex? Perhaps he should campaign that unemployed men should have a 'paid sex' allowance added to their benefits as a solution to VAWG?

It's a complete MRA point though, I wonder if he realizes just how much in common he has with them

I think LoHo and Michelle Brewer will put a different slant on this and of course, DR.

Up until now most people have done a good job of pleading ignorance and/or disinterest in the issue and so if none of them cared about her view then how could that have influenced the clerks to affect her income. We're getting the TRA wing of GCC now though. If the culture and the vehemence of the views can be demonstrated then hopefully the tribunal will get a better sense of how Allison was being ostracised.

If it's true of course. I want truth to come from this not for Allison to win simply because I agree with her. So much light is being shone on the issues that even if it's not technically discriminatory it paints a very dystopian picture of what we all experience when we try to say this stuff anywhere other than Mumsnet and a few safe places.