Amber Heard&Johnny Depp trial

[Miscfeminista]

I wanted to hear more thoughts from women who actually don't accuse Amber for being"a faker". I don't want to tip toe around it or argue with people over same thing over and over while they pretend they are unbiased when in fact they just support Depp.

A lot has already been said and I know you need to have diverse opinions for better conversation etc but on the other thread I am, I'm so tired of people victim blaming and chewing over stuff with little substance so I wanted to make a separate one where we can follow the rest of the trial and outcome with our comments and observations(without constantly arguing about feminist basics).

My last thought was that AH witnesses have been consistent so far and have been wondering if they pulled away from her because they didn't want the drama surrounding it(instead of actually finding her guilty, like Depp fans are suggesting).

I'm following it over Sky over ones with commentary(every day around 1-2 afternoon UK time, 9 in the morning US time I believe..trial ends next week, think someone said 27th)

All observations welcome. What stood out to you so far?

I'm continually amazed that people are overlooking the core issue of what this case is all about: whether Depp domestically abused Heard, and whether Heard lied/perpetrated a hoax about claiming to be a victim of domestic abuse. It's not about who was worse, or whether Heard was in fact the one who hit Depp. It could be true that Heard and Depp were in a mutually abusive relationship, whereby she attacked him, AND that he also domestically abused her and it is correct to say she is a victim. I keep hearing people say 'they are just as bad as each other', but this is not why Depp has brought the case. He wants to be completely exculpated. His story is that there was zero abuse from him, and that Amber has made the entire thing up as part of an elaborate plot to destroy his career.

My personal view is that given it is far, far easier to win a defamation case in the UK, and Depp lost horribly, he doesn't have much hope of winning in the USA (especially given the strong emphasis on free speech, the requirement to prove actual malice, etc). Although there is a jury involved, and juries can be weird (see OJ Simpson.)

This case is so weird though, it's really turning people into nutters. When the Depp trial was happening in the UK I had some guy at a party scream at me for offering my view that Depp's case wasn't particularly strong (and he asked me for my legal opinion!)

I’m not following it closely enough to have much of an opinion, but I find it shocking and terrifying that if he abused her, she’s been dragged into court with no protection or accommodation, to give traumatic testimony directly in front of her abuser, televised live for eviseration by social media.

I think it’s easier to believe she’s lying than think through the appalling implications if she’s not.

I agree with weebisom

im tryimg to think of something else to add to her post and I can’t 😀

“I keep hearing people say 'they are just as bad as each other', but this is not why Depp has brought the case. He wants to be completely exculpated.”

@WeeBisom I know right?? I don’t know how he can still smirk and grin there at court after what you stated above and after hearing plenty(IMO)witnesses say he likes to smash shit close to people and at least calling her names in front of others, while also enough of witnesses seeing her with bruises. He is either delusional or he just wanted Amber to be there and see him deny it in front of everyone. I have no idea.

I am so curious what the judge thinks(even tho it’s jury that decides). I feel like she knows he’s an abusive shit but has to stay impartial and professional obviously. I could swear I saw her face getting more tired as days went by and as they had to go through pictures of Amber with bruises and her witnesses repeating gruesome details, while several of them started crying remembering. I feel she wasn’t immune to that.

What stands out most to me is that this case is showing the entire world that abusive men can continue their abuse through the courts. The legal system has always been sexist but Depp and Marilyn Manson are showing that it isn't fit for purpose in these type of cases. Depp's lawyer laughing theatrically at some of Heard's testimony was absolutely sickening.

“I think it’s easier to believe she’s lying than think through the appalling implications if she’s not.”

@Trivester that’s a good point. I think when it gets too obvious people tend to start to doubt it but sometimes it is as banal or”simple”as it seems. A washed and drugged up old Hollywood actor after young blonde that he abuses. And then the usual misogyny steps in(“well she must be getting something out of it too/golddigger”). Just exhausting to observe, straight out of Patriarchy 101 manual.

@DaisyQuakeJohnson omg did you see his lawyers? Just sickening. I already mentioned on another thread but at one point I saw them like giggling at Amber saying she didn’t know which bottle he was assaulting her with but that it felt like the Maker’s Mark one by shape and at another point the two women lawyers were rolling their eyes and frowning when she was describing how she felt. Just vile.

“When the Depp trial was happening in the UK I had some guy at a party scream at me for offering my view that Depp's case wasn't particularly strong (and he asked me for my legal opinion!)“

@WeeBisom god what a jerk, sorry you had the privilege of enjoying his company. Btw if you’re coming from legal background, do you know if it’s standard practice for lawyers to act like a holes when cross examining?

https://youtube.com/shorts/6HQdkoSGbJ4?feature=share

Because this was A BIT MUCH. Not even the worst but that at the end??

Long time reader of Mumsnet and thought I'd make an account to give my two cents.

Honestly, I've been watching the full court proceedings since the start and have been open minded to the possibility that Amber was abused. However, she has shot herself and her credibility to pieces throughout the trial because:

a) the majority of people she brings forth as "witnesses" say they never actually saw Johnny hit Amber in their presence

b) they are all testifying what Amber told them (I'm not alleging that they were coached by her) simply that they testify to what they heard rather than anything they personally saw or experienced

c) there are inconsistencies in her own testimony where she seems to remember unimportant things in vivid detail and then other things not so much - it gives for a confusing testimony. To give her the benefit of the doubt you could say she has PTSD and her memory is foggy but it also looks awfully convenient that the details that would "catch her out" are the foggiest. Also the memory problems seem to be worse when she is answering Depp's lawyers as opposed to her own

d) the pictures are problematic because of Amber's description of the violence that proceeded them and her insistence that they show a higher degree of injury than they actually do. Even her "witnesses" do the same. They will be shown an image of amber with what appears to be slight dark circles and they will say she had two black eyes. They are very clearly not two black eyes and not (if sadly you are someone who has seen that sort of thing) what you would expect the immediate day after having your nose broken.

e) to add to what appears to be over-exaggerating, Amber never got any medical attention and testified to that fact despite the brutality she alleges to have experienced. She is not exactly poor and had a nurse and doctor on retainer. She also backtracked from saying "Johnny broke my nose" to "it felt like I had a broken nose". Again, the changing testimony and the fact that the images in no way depict a broken nose and two black eyes hurts her case

f) in order to believe Amber's account you have to believe many people are conspiring against her and lying about not seeing things - the police officers (and their bodycam footage) lied, the long-term tenant Isaac lied, the doctor lied, the nurse lied, the psychologist lied etc.

g) lastly there is audio and texts as well as diary entries which indicate that Amber was the aggressor in fights and Johnny was trying to escape her. She is the only one that has admitted to hitting him on tape and also told him to stop "splitting" i.e. walking away in the middle of fights

Nobody is saying Johnny is a sweetheart. At least I'm not. He clearly has issues with substances. But he testified that if he gets mad and out of control since his youth he tended to take his anger out on THINGS not people. The video evidence of him breaking the cupboards supports that as well as the fact that nobody has been able to say they witnessed physical abuse. I think people have also forgotten that the point of this case is actually to prove that Johnny did abuse Amber (even if on one occasion) and therefore she cannot be accused of defamation. Therefore Depp's lawyers have to prove that Amber was the aggressor and initiator and like it or not Amber has made that case pretty easy for them.

Also if people are going to say hitting cupboards and calling each other nasty names constitutes abuse (which it does) it needs to be differentiated from physical violence and Johnny still deserves to have his name cleared from that. It's not fair to get away with labelling someone a "wife beater" and when you can't prove it step down your definition of abuse to name-calling. For the sake of ensuring people get justice, we have to be clear about what we accuse people of and whether it is actually deserved.

I really do think this is our generation's "OJ" to be honest. Politics and personal beliefs about the #metoo movement have muddied the waters in the same way race relations in America did for OJ. We will have to see how things play out.

What stands out to me is the willingness of women to throw another woman under a bus with a level of vitriol that is practically unmatched by the incels. Is it some sort of a weird self-defence mechanism?

I've had to have a chat with my teenage daughter about it, as she was quoting TikTok jokes without really understanding, and to say that however troubled Amber might be, what is happening to her is inhumane.

I am terrified at the level of internalised misogyny being displayed, which, potentially, explains all the rolling back of women's rights that is happening now.

I'm afraid I agree that they are both as bad as each other. Clearly a dysfunctional abusive relationship on both sides. Which means if their is any justice he should lose his case (but that doesn't make Amber an innocent).

An adult male angrily smashing up things in front of you and knowing he could do the same to you is terrifying - it's absolutely psychological abuse. Awful man.

I've had to hide the threads I've been on because of the "she's a liar"
There appears to be a script:

1. I believed her at first
2. her crying / body language is wrong
3. then I watched,/listened to this and she's just like my abusive mother/grandmother
4. so she's a narcissist who has fooled/bullied her friends and family into a elaborate hoax

It's so striking that I get the impression there is an orchestrated campaign. It reminds me of the Brexit unicorn posters who all vanished after the vote

It's also very strongly reminded me of the rules of misogyny:
1. Women are responsible for what men do. - its Amber's fault if Johnny was abusive to her because she followed him round and wouldn't shut up

2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime - she shouldn't have said she was a victim of any crime. She's just as bad and deserves to be punished.

3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish. - How dare she write about her experiences of being assaulted, its so selfish as it makes Johnny look bad

4. Women’s opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified. - she wouldn't stop when he asked, so of course he can be violent

5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless. - who got her the role in Aquaman? She's nothing without him and should be grateful and make him look good in public

6. Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breastfeeding babies deserve punishment.

7. Women should always be grateful to men for everything. - see 5

8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are. - he's a southern gentleman, wouldn't be abusive but can't be blamed for sometimes losing his temper, she's a liar with a need for conflict

9. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say. - she says he's abusive because she's a gold digger taking advantage of him, not because he is abusive

10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad. - she deserved any abuse and Johnny should be recompensed for financial loss from thar abuse

11. Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men. - the whole case shows men can be victims too, poor Johnny

12. Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry. - This is all whipped up deliberately by Amber because of the #me too movement

13. Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves. See 8

14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.- if he was abusive, she'd be too scared to speak up. The fact she has shows there was no violence

15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others. -Anything Johnny might have done is understandable, including smirking and laughing at her testimony. Anything she does is weird, "off" and strange so she must be lying

This is all based on actual "explanations" I've read.

I watched Racquel and Josh yesterday both visibly upset at recounting what happened, yet its all just discounted as staged. It's awful and so depressing. I hope the jury have their heads screwed on.

I am also thinking, that (based on my previous experience with some dubious relationships), I would have behaved very similarly to her - wound't seek medical attention, would be too embarrassed to say anything (to admit that I was such an idiot to a) fall for someone who is abusive and b) keep forgiving them for being so) and would potentially occasionally fight back.

Fortunately, the relationship in question didn't progress past the slamming of the doors of the kitchen cabinets stage (which was terrifying - as it was a clear demonstration of what could happen to me also) and I managed to get out in time.

@AdamRyan For me the scary thing is that based on what's going on, men don't even need to say anything like that - women are happy to do it for them. That's what I don't get.

It does really remind me of witches' trials - if she kills herself (which let's face it is a possibility), then she will be declared innocent and everyone will be sorry. Fuckers.

I agree the point of this lawsuit has been overlooked. It's to establish whether the article and its claims were false.

I'd lean towards no they weren't, it was clearly a toxic relationship with abuse but does publishing an article saying you are a victim and leaving out that you also abused your spouse fundamentally amount to defamation?

No one should have to live like that or accept abuse. The hate being aimed at AH is horrific. for example the colour corrector palette 'revelation', surely a reasonable person could accept they held up that specific one as an example of the type she used (because who would still have the one she used at the time especially a person who wears makeup as much as an actor).

However, the evidence suggests it was both of them perpetrating the abuse and there has to be some kind of differentiation here at least imo. Her claims may be (at least partially) accurate but is it then fair to have JD labelled as an abuser and loose his career with no consequences for AH who is also guilty of abuse? Obviously she is now loosing work as well but prior to this trial it was JD loosing multi million dollar deals and franchises.

Public opinion appears be firmly on JDs side, but conveniently ignoring the questions 'are Ambers claims false'

Exactly. The patriarchy is a scary thing, women see other women, think "I don't like or believe her" and don't think any further about what's influenced them to feel like that. See also Meghan Markle.

My opinion is when women don't comply with expectations its very challenging for other women and causes cognitive dissonance. One response to that is avoidance/denial

Its scary to think you can be as successful as Amber Heard and still be abused - so the answer must be "she wasn't abused" despite all evidence to the contrary

is it then fair to have JD labelled as an abuser and loose his career with no consequences for AH who is also guilty of abuse?
She's also lost her career.
And there is nothing stopping him reporting her to the police.

I just find it extremely sad that they had such a terrible relationship and have continued to relive it ever since, and that it is viewed by the world as “entertainment”. It makes me feel quite despairing about who we are as a society.

No winners here.

It's not about "fairness" it's about justice. He needs to take the consequences of his actions. He bought these lawsuits, he bought this entirely on himself.

Exactly, he properly tanked his career by releasing all those text messages, as part of a lawsuit initiated by himself.

I am shocked at how Amber is being talked to by Johnny's lawyer. Almost like scolding a child.
How bad Ambers lawyers are... everything is so weird.

This.

Why are people conveniently forgetting HE has made this case happen? You reap what you sow.

How bad Ambers lawyers are... everything is so weird.
On another thread I was on, someone said they thought AH lawyers had prepared a totally different case but all the evidence ruled inadmissible has made it difficult. I think that's probably true. The other day AH lawyer was trying to ask AH about lasting effects from her injuries but was totally unable to without being over ruled. Medical testimony has been disallowed. As have various texts and photos.
Johnny's side have done very well to minimise the evidence the jury sees using various technicalities nd I question that in itself as it must have cost a fortune and looks like he has something to hide.