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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Got referred to as them/they at work today

155 replies

Smurfsurf · 17/05/2022 19:03

Worked at our company for a few years and recently the "option" to add pronouns to our intranet profiles was added. I've ignored it and I haven't noticed anyone else adding them. Anyway I was copied in on a forwarded email after I'd queried something and I was referred to as them and they a number of times. "Send Smurf this info please and make sure that they know how to do x, they wanted it done recently but have not had the tools to help them do it". That kind of thing.

The person who did this is new and works in HR. I was... surprised. And felt a bit insulted? It felt impersonal. I mean fair enough if someone uses those terms and actually wants others to, whatever.

The person in question is very nice and we've chatted quite a bit but I just felt weird about it all. I'm wondering if this is it now, are they all going to be referring to everyone as they/them by default if they've not put pronouns down? Am also wondering if it was just "assumed" I'm they/them as I am not particularly girly or anything in my appearance but definitely don't come off non binary or anything, at least not that I've thought. But I suspect it might be a thing now especially in HR, I doubt anyone else gives a toss.

I'm a quiet person and hate confrontation so I'm not about to say anything but it bothered me a bit. But if I don't say anything will this give them the green light to continue? But I don't want to put she/her or whatever on my work profile ffs.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 17/05/2022 19:09

With any luck someone will reply 'sure, I'll show her how to do that' and normality will be restored.

Original poster
Smurfsurf · 17/05/2022 19:30

Well the other person is in HR as well so might just go along with it. Maybe I should add faery/faerykin as my pronouns and see if they use it!

OP posts:
NotAGirl · 17/05/2022 19:34

I’d ask her in person in a puzzled tone why she was misgendering you

KittenKong · 17/05/2022 19:35

They mis gendered you eh?

Whats the expression ‘play stupid games, win stupid prizes’? Have fun…

Sittingonabench · 17/05/2022 19:37

Hmmm this is a bit of a catch 22. Not wanting to state preferred pronouns in order to not support the way things are going but also being uncomfortable when people use other pronouns… it feels like a trap. Not sure there is anything you can do as a complaint will just lead them to saying you should state your preference, while not saying anything and yes I think they/them will become the default

MakeThingsRight · 17/05/2022 19:38

I think you might be reading too much into it. It's a perfectly acceptable email.

Being called 'she' used to be unacceptable - I was brought up being told "who's she? The cats mother?" No idea why.

I imagine it was through politeness.

I speak as the mother of a 13 year old non binary teen who does still accept she as her pronoun.

user1471504747 · 17/05/2022 19:39

It’s a difficult one because I think by specifically pointing out your pronouns you’re just agreeing they should be a thing.

errols solution seems best, it might just be a waiting game unfortunately

2bazookas · 17/05/2022 19:39

I would take this up with HR and ask them to make clear to all that "them/they" are not the default pronouns for everybody; only for people who actively request them.

OnceAgainWithFeeling · 17/05/2022 19:41

I’m in HR and actively trying to leave my new employer because they’ve bought into the pronoun crap.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 17/05/2022 19:44

It’s a cleft stick: to say you want she/her pronouns is to play their game. Many people in English do use the singular They/them so it doesn’t sound too bad. If you were brave you could declare your pronouns to be sex-based. But I would probably leave it.

Soontobe60 · 17/05/2022 19:46

What the email writer has done isn’t actually grammatically incorrect.
Stating pronouns you want people to use about you is a nonsense. But this person just used ‘they’ as their belief is that pronouns are important, didn’t know what yours were and so went with the default position (as one would do if one didn’t actually know the sex of the person being referred to). I can just imagine the angst they may have gone through!!!

Nutellaspoon · 17/05/2022 19:49

I'd reply innocently and say that there is only one person cc'd, and ask who is the other person she was referring to

SpringBadger · 17/05/2022 19:58

MakeThingsRight · 17/05/2022 19:38

I think you might be reading too much into it. It's a perfectly acceptable email.

Being called 'she' used to be unacceptable - I was brought up being told "who's she? The cats mother?" No idea why.

I imagine it was through politeness.

I speak as the mother of a 13 year old non binary teen who does still accept she as her pronoun.

The cat's mother is because it can seem rude to refer to someone in their presence without using their name. E.g. you are in the living room with your grandma, Mum comes in with a mug and asks "Which one of you was having milk and two sugars?", and you say "Her" or "She was", instead of "Grandma".

It would be even ruder to say "Them" in that situation - even more impersonal and dismissive. Like you don't even know or care who they are, or how they might feel to be referred to so contemptuously. (Obviously, unless the person has asked to be referred to that way, which is a very recent development that most of us wouldn't come across in everyday life).

I'd feel the same if referred to as "them", like I was beneath the notice of the lofty speaker or writer. It would feel similar to being called "it". Like a slight.

It's only acceptable if used to refer to a hypothetical person of either sex, or a person whose sex is unknown, or a person who had asked to be referred to that way.

elferian · 17/05/2022 20:00

it is not a new thing to use they/them to refer to people, it is perfectly acceptable usage and has been for ever.
If however they are differentiating you then you may want to ask why - but that will be hard because they will just say add she/her to you email if that is how you want to be called.

SpringBadger · 17/05/2022 20:02

elferian · 17/05/2022 20:00

it is not a new thing to use they/them to refer to people, it is perfectly acceptable usage and has been for ever.
If however they are differentiating you then you may want to ask why - but that will be hard because they will just say add she/her to you email if that is how you want to be called.

To refer to a known individual? "Please pass Sarah their coat"? "John is in their office"?

ifchoclatewerecelery · 17/05/2022 20:03

@Smurfsurf this might be the cause

www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/10-ways-step-ally-non-binary-people

elferian · 17/05/2022 20:04

@SpringBadger Yes, people have always done that, maybe not common but not wrong either

Coyoacan · 17/05/2022 20:14

Being called 'she' used to be unacceptable - I was brought up being told "who's she? The cats mother?" No idea why

She has always been perfectly acceptable, the problem is when you use the third-person pronoun about someone who is present at that moment.

I use only they/them when I do not know if I am talking about a man or a woman, such as a doctor or engineer in abstract.

Original poster
Smurfsurf · 17/05/2022 21:58

Nutellaspoon · 17/05/2022 19:49

I'd reply innocently and say that there is only one person cc'd, and ask who is the other person she was referring to

I love this suggestion 😁

Yeah I'd only use them if I didn't know if they were male or female or if the person had specified. I have a friend who is trans and I'd use she or her when I'm talking about her to someone else. And a friend's teenager goes by them, ditto.

OP posts:
MMBaranova · 17/05/2022 22:10

I’ve often used third person singular they, especially before the current crapfest. Coyoacan gives a good example. The example cited by OP would probably not bother me, or be a bit of bait I wouldn’t take, but it would depend on workplace dynamics.

MistyFuckingQuigley · 17/05/2022 22:16

elferian · 17/05/2022 20:04

@SpringBadger Yes, people have always done that, maybe not common but not wrong either

Agree @elferian this is how I refer to people whether they are in front of me or not. Nothing to do with this pronouns bullshit and everything to do with how i learnt english. Surprised its not acceptable. I'm Northern maybe it's more prevalent there?

Anyway, honestly wouldn't bother me and I'm as gender critical as they come.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/05/2022 22:20

I use the third person singular for an individual if I'm not referring to a specific person, or if I don't know their sex or name. But if you know someone's name then it's generally possible to not use pronouns at all if you don't know if they're male or female.

CatherinaJTV · 17/05/2022 22:26

Do you have an ambiguous name? The infamous Sam/Kim/Simone/Andrea?

hihellohihello · 17/05/2022 22:35

Just don't give it energy and ignore. If asked face to face/specifically about your gender say you don't know, you don't have a concept of one / whatever is most accurate but your sex is female. If asked about pronouns say whatever is grammatically correct in this context.

Time2Move · 17/05/2022 22:52

I'm not sure I'd even have noticed this tbh.
But if I did I wouldn't complain. One of my objections to stating pronouns is that I don't believe that I have pronouns, in the sense that it isn't for me to dictate how others speak, so I can't have it both ways. And in fact, if it wasn't so bound up with gender identity bollocks, I'd think defaulting to gender neutral language when sex is not relevant would be a positive thing (mangling of grammar notwithstanding).
The whole point of pronouns is that they are a linguistic shortcut intended to make speech flow more naturally, and policing the pronouns others use to refer to me runs counter to that. I think my approach would be to treat it as if this was just how this person happened to speak (even while suspecting it was performative nonsense)... that would change if I was asked to do the same, or if things became obviously goady (e.g. calling me him in the next email).