Got referred to as them/they at work today

[Smurfsurf]

Worked at our company for a few years and recently the "option" to add pronouns to our intranet profiles was added. I've ignored it and I haven't noticed anyone else adding them. Anyway I was copied in on a forwarded email after I'd queried something and I was referred to as them and they a number of times. "Send Smurf this info please and make sure that they know how to do x, they wanted it done recently but have not had the tools to help them do it". That kind of thing.

The person who did this is new and works in HR. I was... surprised. And felt a bit insulted? It felt impersonal. I mean fair enough if someone uses those terms and actually wants others to, whatever.

The person in question is very nice and we've chatted quite a bit but I just felt weird about it all. I'm wondering if this is it now, are they all going to be referring to everyone as they/them by default if they've not put pronouns down? Am also wondering if it was just "assumed" I'm they/them as I am not particularly girly or anything in my appearance but definitely don't come off non binary or anything, at least not that I've thought. But I suspect it might be a thing now especially in HR, I doubt anyone else gives a toss.

I'm a quiet person and hate confrontation so I'm not about to say anything but it bothered me a bit. But if I don't say anything will this give them the green light to continue? But I don't want to put she/her or whatever on my work profile ffs.

Absolutely normal they/them used singularly and been used for hundreds of years. This section of Mumsnet is becoming increasingly myopic over pronouns to the extent that what's said on here is pretty close to transphobic at times. And this is from someone who believes the presence of a y chromosome determines ones sex.

Nope! My name is 100% a female-only name, no ambiguity there.

This is the first time in my 40 odd years on earth that someone has ever referred to me as they or them, it really took me by surprise. I just wonder what else might happen, might I get picked up (by HR or someone else) for calling colleagues that I've known for years she or her or he or him when they've not stipulated otherwise? Like I said nobody seems bothered by pronouns but that's not to say that someone else might take offence on their behalf! Maybe it was the culture in this person's previous workplace or maybe it's something that's being ushered in by the powers that be to seem "inclusive" who knows.

And in fact, if it wasn't so bound up with gender identity bollocks, I'd think defaulting to gender neutral language when sex is not relevant would be a positive thing (mangling of grammar notwithstanding).

Yes - actually I tend to think that anyway. Certainly if you're referring to a generic person of unknown sex, 'they' is infinitely preferable to the old default of 'he', or the unsayable construct s/he.

The whole point of pronouns is that they are a linguistic shortcut intended to make speech flow more naturally, and policing the pronouns others use to refer to me runs counter to that.

Yes, exactly.

I use they/them in emails talking about people I don't know, especially with names which are unclear. It's just the politest most simple way to do it. "Hi X I'm referring Y to you because they're having trouble with their log on details".

It seems a reach to have a massive issue with this.

Except that the OP was quite clear that she had spoken to this HR person several times, doesn't have an ambiguous name, doesn't present especially androgynously... so why would the HR person not be aware that the OP is female?

I much prefer they/them compared to the default of "dear sirs" that some jobs have had me use if we didn't know the recipient.

I'd consider it fairly "safe" as an option if I wasn't aware of the workplace culture, and/or didn't know colleagues enough to know which ones prefer alternative pronouns yet. It also avoids singling out those with names like Sam, if everyone gets they/them then it isn't as obvious that you don't have a clue what sex they are.

The polite default would be pronouns in line with sex or name unless otherwise specified. Far far higher chance of being right than if you assume they/them. Particularly when referring to people who have been offered the chance to specify and declined it.

Defaulting to they suggests political point scoring to me. That would annoy me far more than the pronoun itself. HR shouldn't be inflicting their politics on you.

Some people use they / them for everyone. DD teacher referred to her as they and I sent an email back straightaway to say never do that again. They replied saying that they do that for everyone. I can't remember if it was a male or female teacher.

Can you ask next time you see the person, with your best puzzled face? - "Just wondering why you're suddenly calling me "they", I'm confused?" And nice skeptical face while they try to explain why they suddenly weren't sure if you were female any more, even though they know you perfectly well, etc etc? 😉

I don't think that is anything directly to do with gender identity. THey use of they or them to refer to a singular individual, even one who is in no way trans-identified or non-binary or anything, is increasingly common - as in, I am seeing it all the time. Sometimes it's mixed.

Things like: "Rachel is getting her hair cut, then they are going to the cafe."

It may well be related indirectly, people are hearing that usage more and more so are picking it up unconsciously. TYpically women pick up new language trends first, especially younger ones, and HR tends to be female dominated.

It's almost always used when the sex of the person reffered to is unknown, and some of the new uses are constructed differently than the older ones. It's really not the same.

I’d refuse to state my pronouns as it’s a load of bollocks, but I would tell them that you use sex based pronouns, and if anyone has any doubt over your sex, you’re happy for them to contact you to discuss.

I think this is a fight that can't be won. They, haha are being indoctrinated from all angles. I mean it's a tippy toe, but what can you do? Soon enough saying him or her will seem odd.

There is a reason gender critical is a very niche area of the Internet. If people can't see pieces being put into place for authoritarian control, the whole gender wars being a part then it's on nobody but ourselves. Even gender critical people dismiss the rest as conspiracy, despite seeing a conspiracy roll out in full view. I give up, there is nowhere on the Internet now for free speech, apart from the everyist ones.

It personally wouldn’t bother me as long as my salary goes into my bank account as usual.

So it goes

How far back does 'always' go? I'm 62, worked all over the UK as a contractor, and not once has anyone ever referred to me as they/them.

Because you are myopic and self interested, as are most people.

I always knew my 5 years at Uni was a waste of time but who am I to complain as I have been called many things but never myopic but there’s a first for everything.

If there is a text field other enter "observed seax-based pronouns".

You could also reply to HR, " Hi X, we had a conversation about pronouns the other day with my manager and team. They was asking them whether they had declared pronouns and one of them queried had they asked HR if they are compulsory and they commented that it wasn't clear if they are compulsory for them or not. They said, if they asks for clarity would it help and they said agreed but so far they hasn't been given this clarity. And then they said better just to use they/them to avoid offense; is this what they advising now in HR? But then they said they wasn't sure if that information was correct and so they said they would follow up with HR separately. I was wondering if HR replied to them already and if you could forward the guidelines you sent them on this? If you didnt reply to them, please could you reply to them so they can share them onwards or send them to me. I will see if I am able to follow them. The team discussion carried on with them saying they expects some of them would prefer to stick with observed sex-based pronouns as a default option and they should not require them to declare pronouns or default to they/them in absence of a declaration. There is also a lack of clarity surrounding the use of they/them as a singular pronoun and should you still decline the verb in the singular or is it preferred to use the plural form and or is this a matter of personal choice? So these are the areas in which advice is most needed. Thanks in advance for sharing your reply to them. "

Dear X in HR,

Just a quick thing, I'm only one person so please don't use plurals when referring to me.

FYI I don't wish to disclose whether I have a gender ID in the workplace, so please use the conventional terms based on sex if you do have to. I'll let you know if/when this changes.

No harm has been done with this one email I just want to be clear.

Yes I often call people they, never really thought anything about it. Might come from the 'cats mother' thing, who knows.... I wouldn't even notice that to be honest, so I wouldn't get too worked up about it OP.

Singular they is used as a distancing mechanism for strangers, or when you don't know the sex of the person - the reason it feels impersonal, is because it is, that's how historically they've been used.

"who's she, the cat's mother" is because you're supposed to use a person's name though, not because you should use 'they'

'She gave me a card' vs 'Mrs Smith gave me a card'.

'They gave me a card' is even less polite than 'she' given it sounds like you didn't even pay enough attention to the person to notice if they were male or female, let alone find out their name.

This