Got referred to as them/they at work today

[Smurfsurf]

Worked at our company for a few years and recently the "option" to add pronouns to our intranet profiles was added. I've ignored it and I haven't noticed anyone else adding them. Anyway I was copied in on a forwarded email after I'd queried something and I was referred to as them and they a number of times. "Send Smurf this info please and make sure that they know how to do x, they wanted it done recently but have not had the tools to help them do it". That kind of thing.

The person who did this is new and works in HR. I was... surprised. And felt a bit insulted? It felt impersonal. I mean fair enough if someone uses those terms and actually wants others to, whatever.

The person in question is very nice and we've chatted quite a bit but I just felt weird about it all. I'm wondering if this is it now, are they all going to be referring to everyone as they/them by default if they've not put pronouns down? Am also wondering if it was just "assumed" I'm they/them as I am not particularly girly or anything in my appearance but definitely don't come off non binary or anything, at least not that I've thought. But I suspect it might be a thing now especially in HR, I doubt anyone else gives a toss.

I'm a quiet person and hate confrontation so I'm not about to say anything but it bothered me a bit. But if I don't say anything will this give them the green light to continue? But I don't want to put she/her or whatever on my work profile ffs.

Being called 'she' used to be unacceptable - I was brought up being told "who's she? The cats mother?" No idea why.

That is because using a personal pronoun as a replacement for a parent etc. in your presence was deemed bad manners and disrespectful. 'They' would be an even worse transgression.

So, it would have been more respectful to say 'mammy/mother etc'. Or Grandma etc. Jane etc.

I'd imagine instead of the cat's mother, if using 'they', you'd be asked something along the lines of 'who is they? A herd of horses?'

I think this is right. I often hear “language evolves all the time” from the proponents of forced speech and I think but naturally evolving is not the same as being forced. However in the case of using ‘they’ for known individuals it is naturally evolving due environmental pressures on the category of sex.

As with so many things which are being pressured by gender identity and queer theory I think the logical conclusion is that everything will end up up neutralised, neither male nor female. When sex is made irrelevant in law or socially or taboo, what then is the point in having anything for the different sexes be it pronouns, toilets, changing rooms, sports, prizes, shortlists, support groups, prisons etc

This perfectly suits the end goals of queer theory but I don’t think it will be desirable for people identifying as trans, where will they get their validation? It will be terrible for women and girls, we’ll have no allowances made nor recognition for our sex specific needs because the gender neutral default will turn out to be male.

Basically while the trans movement may shout the loudest, what they are asking for is incoherent and illogical. The quiet non-binaries will claim the victory from the wasteland, the recognition of male and female will become socially and perhaps also legally unacceptable.

My workplace uses ‘they’ in online spaces to refer to all users regardless of sex or preferred pronouns. It will go this way in society I believe because genuinely no one can be bothered with remembering preferred pronouns for individuals and it is not a natural speech of any language in human history to do that, but also because many people feel uncomfortable incorrectly sexing individuals and choose ‘they’ instead. Applying ‘they’ to everyone is what I believe will naturally evolve from all this mess. After all we lost the second person single pronoun thou, thy, thine and stick with the formal/plural you. It is not inconceivable that we could lose the third person single pronouns too and be stuck with the impersonal/plural ‘they’.

So, would you say 'they expects', 'they wants' etc? Like Gollum.

I am hearing ‘they’ used in speech combined with third person singular conjugations.

“They expect”, “they want”.

Myself I resolutely use he or she for a known person, personally I don’t like this shift to they. However it does feel like it is naturally evolving. For example in Milli Hill’s article in the daily mail she writes “how does a midwifery lecture find themselves” instead of herself. Possibly the lecturer prefers or demands the third person plural pronoun but the reader doesn’t necessarily know that and so it just becomes normalised as a speech pattern. Often I hear or see themself which is surely a new construction. Even though I am ideologically opposed to using ‘they’ for known individuals I sometimes find myself using it in speech when I am not being careful, we naturally pick up the speech patterns used by others around us even if we don’t like those patterns! In writing it is easier to be more careful.

14th Century according to Wikipedia

You could put it down as a good learning experience of how it feels to be misgenered. Experiences like this are helpful for increasing our empathy.

My god, what is your life like that this upsets you.

Except it wouldn't be "they asks for clarity" would it? It would be they are asking for clarity. Why does your knowledge of grammar go out of the window when trying to make a quite frankly ridiculous point.

Honestly I love the FWR board here, people speak a lot of sense, but this is bordering in stupidity. And to the people who say they have never heard people using they/them in normal speech, I say get out more. I use it all of the time for no other reason that it's how we use it where I'm from. Tbf though I'm from "the north" and obviously we don't speak properly there do we? You utter loons. You're giving this part of mumsnet a bad name.

Presumably this is something that HR have decided to use as a default?
I can see both sides here. HR use neutral as default (offends some people) or assume pronouns (offends some people).
If you would prefer to be addressed as she, then tell them. Personally I don't really want to be in a position to have to state my pronouns, but in this case I would offer clarity.

I’d respond with “Who’s they, the cat’s birthing parent?”. What could possibly go wrong?

Beanie, but that makes no sense. People who want to be they/them are a small minority and usually go out of their way to tell you so. So chance of someone being a they/them if no specified pronouns is next to nothing. Whereas most people use sex based pronouns, and a high proportion of those will think it doesn't need saying or be politically opposed to saying.
If they wanted to not offend the max number of people they'd default to sex based.
Which leaves possibility that they do want to offend. Or are deliberately trying to goad people into the political stance that is pronoun stating.

Sorry, that was to beamur! Autocarrot.

I quite like Beanie 😁
I very much doubt that amount of thought has gone into the decision to use 'they' as a default...

I've found my EAL colleagues do this as they don't find determining sex by names easy.

It's not grammatically incorrect or rude and can think of many reasons why someone would do it so couldn't get het up by it in the slightest.

Dasiesandbuttercups

I think your analysis is correct, this is a change that is naturally coming out of the push to get rid of or make references to sex in speech unrelated to biological sex.

And I also agree that what it will come down to is a decreasing recognition of biological sex as a real category with importance.

This change is coming naturally is it? Or is it being compelled?

...a decreasing recognition of biological sex as a real category with importance.

Biological sex has no importance?

This is standard in my workplace but I ignore it. If anyone calls me they/them (so far I haven't noticed this happening) I'll simply say that although I do the work of three people there is only one of me.

The other thing is that if women were the ones asking for this change because we wanted to avoid she/her and 'outing' ourselves as female we'd be ignored and laughed at (as we were in the 80s when the idea of non-sexed pronouns was briefly mooted). It's only because some of those asking have dicks between their legs and the Y chromosome that this is being taken seriously.

I propose that the change to using ‘they’ as the default pronoun is the natural response to pressure from the gender identity movement to normalise compelled speech. I don’t think they will succeed in compelling speech and my observation is that partly as a result businesses, services and people more generally are defaulting to ‘they’ so as to avoid he/she and all the myriad made up new pronouns.

The reasons for this is in my opinion

the cognitive load of remembering individual pronouns is too great, with the sex based system we didn’t need to think about it as we are, for the most part, excellent at recognising sex without conscious consideration.

most people are averse to offending others and would rather avoid unnecessary conflict using ‘they’ appears less offensive than drawing attention to someone’s sex in the current political/social climate.

when creating online systems it is easier to apply they/them to all users than to ask for and apply the pronouns of individuals

I see and hear people, even gender critical people using they/them when he or she would have been used in the past.

I think we default to whatever creates the least resistance and using they/them for everyone appears to be that at the moment.

I notice and applaud it when I see “he or she” used in writing instead of “they” nowadays but I do now think that we are losing the sexed third person singular pronouns in English and sadly I suspect that 50 years from now they might be regarded as archaic.

This is occurring naturally in my opinion in as much as people are doing it unconsciously but of course it has been precipitated by the issues brought about by the forced pushing of gender identity and queer theory on society through. institutions.

i would have sent a very similar email. It’s just how I speak, nothing to do with gendered pronouns.

If you are a quiet person, perhaps there is a small chance that objecting will be taken seriously. 'Please refer to me by name in future' could be a response.

They/them is grammatically incorrect to describe one person.

Maybe reply saying, “apologies, I was under the impression I was undertaking the task alone. Please can you let me know who else you I am to work with when you reference ‘they’. Many thanks, Miss/Ms/Mrs presumably female name”

They has been used in singular form since Shakespeare times

So some people don't like that and tried to codify they mean plural ingrammar laws but language doesn't work like that

I'm a pain in the arse with this one. If people want to play pronoun games I insist on it/it.

Completely correct from a purist perspective because "it" is a pronoun and utterly correct in how I feel most of the time...but most people struggle to call me "it". Make me feel uncomfortable with pronoun politics and I'm in the game to do the same.