Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

You do it like you do for people who believe in religions that you don't. You can say that some people believe that they have a gender identity that is separate to their physical body, etc etc. Because it is essentially a belief system, one that is seeing a surge in popularity, but one that you don't ascribe to. I would then explain why you don't have the same beliefs, and be clear that no human ever actually changes sex, but some people feel that they need to alter their bodies to superficially resemble the opposite sex. And some simply want to dress and behave how they think the opposite sex does. At this point you could talk about sex based stereotypes.

Explain that most people once believed the Earth was flat, and in the past people thought diseases were spread by bad smells, and that people of different races were of inherently different worth, and those things were ‘explained’ to kids in schools as well. Something can be untrue even if every person on Earth thinks otherwise.

Well, firstly, I would think about adapting your language and how you refer to things, as this will pass on to your child.

ie - a "special toilet assigned just for them". Children in schools use toilets on their own for a variety of reasons.

am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them". How can you be "quite sure" of the motivations of people that you don't know?

Put simply, this child feels internally that they are male, not female.

Children get it. The number of trans students is on the rise. The kids are fine with it. It's the parents who struggle. Please be acutely aware that any judgements, however much you try to water them down, will be very obvious.

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly?
Listen. Ask questions.
Let them come to realisations themselves.

Comparing transgender to an eating disorder is grossly, grossly unfair and you know it.

"Some people believe" is much better than the faux confusion of "how do I explain it?"

If you want to play comparisons, there is a wide variety of reasons a child might be "different" from others. there is no league table.

It's all very well playing ifs and buts on a forum and claiming you would march up to people and tell them they're deluded, but ultimately children have to learn to adapt.

I would fully expect a school to come down hard on any child treating any child badly - trans or otherwise.

Incidentally, as I said above - teenage students tend to cope just fine with trans pupils.

Wonder why.

And they don't think they are trans. They are.

Have you son lead the discussion with questions so you know what's troubling him. (including reassurance that you won't judge, it's confidential etc)

I would focus on how sad it is that X is struggling if your son believes in gender ideology and might react badly to a GC viewpoint.

It's ok to say "What do you think?" to some of his questions. If he's not ready for some difficult questions then focus on the fact that you hope that the changes that X has made makes them happy.

Yes treat it like a religion. Some people believe X and you need to be respectful of that but it doesn't mean it's true (other people believe Y and this is the evidence for that). You may or may not believe it and that's your choice etc etc.

Put simply, this child feels internally that they are male, not female.

What should the op say if her son asks what it means to feel like a male and not a female?

What does that mean?

stopwaiting, you are quite wrong. Over 80% of children who “think they are trans” turn out not to be - the majority being either gay, autistic, have a history of sex abuse, or are simply upset by puberty and dislike the resulting unwanted male attention.
Watchful waiting is now recommended, to avoid these children being permanently damaged by puberty blockers, surgery and cross sex hormones. The scandal of detransitioners is testament to the folly of insisting any child is trans who claims to be.

Comparing transgender to an eating disorder is grossly, grossly unfair and you know it.

No it's not.
The parallels are blinding obvious.

When I grew up about 1 in 20 teenage girls had bulimia nervosa or anorexia when that disorder de jour was at it's peak.
Nowadays about 1 in 20 girls have gender dysphoria, which is the present day disorder de jour, which has completely replaced anorexia and bulimia.

Eating disorders and gender dysphoria both involve intense obsession of the self and self image, both stem from deep insecurity and often involve trauma or otherwise broken home life, and are often coupled with other mental health problems.

My children have asked me questions about this. My young teen in particular was very confused following some kind of pshe lesson or whatever it's called now.

I said there are people who believe they are the opposite sex. It's important to be respectful but also to understand that you can't actually change sex. I was keen to emphasise this as there had previously been some talk of a couple in their year "becoming" gay (girl and boy, girl then identified as a boy and they were still together) and wanted to make sure my own teen understood that from a biological (let's face it, potential baby making) point of view they are not a gay couple.

We talked a bit about sex vs gender too, looking back I'm not sure how much of this bit they got. But they've asked me things a few times so I suppose (like lots of things) it's an ongoing conversation.

Interestingly (given some of the advice above) we've had similar chats about religion.

As someone said above, approaching it with a pluralist perspective works ie some people believe this and some believe that. We respect each others right to believe different things... This has usually led to my child asking, ok so what do you believe mum? I tell her, she usually says, yeah, me too.

This. It's exactly how you answer RE questions for exams too.

I'm used to explaining the world like this to my children.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou It really isn’t “grossly unfair”. “Ana” ideology circulated on the internet exhaustively in early webrings, a bit like Tumblr in 2015-20, and there was a very similar culture of “identifying” with it for many teens, just as there is today with gender ideology.

I’ve worked with older teenagers for more than twenty years, and where 25 years ago it was emo and cutting, 20 years ago it was eating disorders and webring poetry, 15 years ago it was drinking societies and Lib Dem activism (Cleggmania was bizarrely rife among teenagers!), ten years ago social anxiety disorders, and five years ago Corbyn and decolonisation; the current fashion is gender ideology. It’s no different from any social contagion and if you read Tumblr or are on any Discord servers it’s been circulating in all its glory for some time before going mainstream.

I happen to work on the social history of psychological diagnoses and mental illnesses, and there were plenty of similar ideological “conditions” that popped up every so often and then disappeared again a couple of decades later. In this sense “transgender” is merely the current version of hysteria or neurasthenia or “sexual inversion” or “moral insanity” or whatever. It may seem innate and fixed and imminent now; but that’s what people have always thought about whatever “diagnosis” is fashionably popular at the time.

What, for example, distinguishes “transgenderism” from “body dysmorphic disorder” (a kindred syndrome to eating disorders); or indeed BID, body integrity disorder? The psychological construction of these is almost exactly identical. In each one, the affected person believes the syndrome is innate and identity-based, even if it’s a demonstrable pathology. Why is gender identity any different? Can you explain to me what gender identity is and where it comes from and where it resides?

What, in essence, differentiates gender ideology from social contagion?

Well, you can't say they "think" they're trans.

I don't believe in God. Doesnt mean I say people "think" they're Christian.

They are transgender. that's a fact. Whether people deny the concept is a different thing.

Transgender children having a broken home life and mental illnesses does not make transgender a mental illness.

I don't disagree with your second statement, but I have a problem with these statistics.

Where are you getting them from? Who are you asking?

They are transgender. that's a fact.

Can you explain what you mean by transgender?

How can you be "quite sure" of the motivations of people that you don't know?

I should have been clearer; I do know them.

Interesting points. Thank you. I didn’t see the deleted comments. My son loves a good chat and to put the world to rights at bedtime so I shall give it a whirl tonight. Yes, not sounding judgemental is key. The child in question is very clearly in trauma and the sibling (son’s friend) will surely be also. The child questioning their gender is on suicide watch and cannot be left alone at school or home.

I want my son to realise this is part of a much bigger problem in the child’s life.

So do you genuinely, genuinely not believe that a single person is transgender?

I have known and worked with trans people, mainly young. I don't know a single one yet who has done it because someone else is.

Far from being 'cool', it's a hardship to live with, mainly because of the lack of acceptance.

Someone born as a sex that wants to live as the other sex (and I know you're going to ask me what I mean by the other sex, but the arguments come because we aren't (I assume) transgender!)

I struggle with people desperate to deny the beliefs of other people. Live and let live, no?

Can you explain to me what gender identity is and where it comes from and where it resides?
A good example of my suggestion to "Listen. Ask questions."
I'm not sure of what you do when if they never answer the question. It makes sensible discussion a bit difficult.