Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

The key word in your middle paragraph is “young”, @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Have you ever wondered why this is the case?

Because I work with young people

Unlike most in these type of posts, I don't talk about things I don't know.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou - but you said you don't know any young people who have transitioned. I work in education too, yes really, and I see living proof of the profile of young people that get referred to the Tavistock, as I mentioned earlier. And of course I treat them with respect, as I treat all the young people, but I can also see the harm that they are doing to themselves wearing breast-binders etc. And actually I'm shocked at my colleagues who don't see it as a safeguarding issue (whereas breast-ironing, which rarely happens, is)

No, I don't.

Do you? Have you seen any that have fully transitioned?

@nepeta yes absolutely - I see this more widely too with young people: they are increasingly unwilling to challenge things like received ideas or beliefs in the face of genuine evidence. So for example they will always tell me confidently the canard that coursework is better for female and minority students, because that’s a longstanding thing that circulates (without evidence) around the education system.

So when you produce detailed data and say, well that’s what people like to say, but actually these X number of very good data analysis studies here actually prove the opposite — in previous generations you’d see them be really keen to jettison old ideas and take the data on board. Whereas right now, they will look at you and kind of go “ah” with funny looks; and next thing you know they are all lobbying the department for more coursework because “the student Union says it’s better for women and minorities”, and you just end up explaining the data all again and they just look at you again with those “ah, right”, looks and don’t seem to take it in. Facepalm time.

You get this with lots of other stuff too - just kind of an entrenched unwillingness to jettison what they think sounds like it ought to be right, despite all evidence and data that it isn’t. It’s something I’ve really only seen happening in a widespread way within the last few years.

That’s one reason that I’m pessimistic about this blowing over any time soon. Gender ideology is like the flipside youth version of Trump MAGA and conspiracist movements - wedded to bogus ideas circulating around the internet and “fake news” and impervious to reason and evidenced data - it just brushes it off.

Just like whatever scientific studies you produce a great number of people will be taking ivermectin because they read stuff on the internet and they don’t believe in your science anyway, so much of the gender ideology circulating amongst young people is impervious to actual medical or factual evidence because whatever you argue it’s automatically “transphobic”. It’s exactly the same kind of movement duplicating the same methods of social contagion, and just as deeply antithetical to reason or scientific materialism or data.

I really, really enjoy your posts.

What do you mean by 'fully transitioned' @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou?

You said you hadn't seen anyone transition. I wonder if the word means something different to you than it does to me

Medically.

What do you mean by fully-transitioned?
I know young women who wear binders, take testosterone, and have socially transitioned.
I wouldn't ask them if they have had a mastectomy, as it would not be appropriate.

What do you mean by medically? I don't wish to badger you but I think a blurring of what words mean often leads to people talking at cross purposes.

Just like whatever scientific studies you produce a great number of people will be taking ivermectin because they read stuff on the internet and they don’t believe in your science anyway, so much of the gender ideology circulating amongst young people is impervious to actual medical or factual evidence because whatever you argue it’s automatically “transphobic”. It’s exactly the same kind of movement duplicating the same methods of social contagion, and just as deeply antithetical to reason or scientific materialism or data.

So interesting! This is very helpful for me, because I have come across the "water down the duck's back'" response to linking to ten articles showing something is untrue so many times online!

I mean not reading the articles at all, because they must be wrong if they don't show what the person already believes. And I understand the reluctance, because I have had to dig through stuff I don't want to be true also, but I was taught to do exactly that so that if I still disagree with them I have the arsenal to explain why. And sometimes this has changed my mind, too.

And the somewhat mirror image cases of the right and the left! Thank you so much. You have given me interesting things to think about.

No she hasn't had the respectful answers. I don't know what thread you are reading.

MN is all very lovely but what if this was their child who was in the situation?

Ask him what he thinks it means? It's not hard to have an actual conversation with someone if you are willing to be open, ask questions and actually listen to the answer.

that is not transitioned You mentioned mastectomies earlier so was that an assumption?

No, you're fine.

To me, transitioned means fully. Testosterone, medical surgery. Very rare.

there is a lot of hysteria about binders but that is not transition.

To children I'd frame it as a religious belief system. But I would also talk about the medical dangers, and the inherent misogyny of the movement. And that no-one really know what it is to 'feel like' anyone else.

It might be better, next time she asks you what you think, to flip it straight back to her and ask her first. That way you might get what she actually thinks. I'd be worried in the scenario that you've described, that she is just agreeing with you because you are her mum and a trusted adult.

Taking testosterone certainly qualifies as a medical transition. All the transgender sites interpret it that way. Bilateral mastectomy is fairly common among trans men but any further surgery is pretty rare and so is genital surgery for trans women. Mostly medical transitioning seems to be taking hormones.

Yeah, this too!

DD told me the other day that “Phoebe says she thinks she’s a boy and wants to change into a boy because if you’re a girl you have to get pregnant if you have sex and she doesn’t want to be pregnant. Is that true?”

Well, I never thought I would be explaining contraception and phalloplasty all in one go at bedtime, but you can only be factual really, as so much guff circulates about at that age. DD said “But can doctors make an actual penis?” and I told her what they can do; and her reaction was “WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO DO THAT JUST TO TELL THEMSELVES A LIE?”

Quite.

post-trans.com

It's not 'hysteria' about binders. They're damaging.

I like this. Very well put and succinctly.

In other words, you'd describe it as completely and utterly negative.

You can say that some people believe that they have a gender identity that is separate to their physical body,

what strikes me soooo much with gender ideology is how it separates mind and body. As if our bodies are somehow alien to us.

a mentally and physically healthy person doesn’t see themselves as separate from their body

so you could say something like that. If your DS plays any kind of sport, or a musical instrument then he might be able to be guided by that experience - when your mind and body are integrated and you can achieve great things.

I'm sure.

But you're pedalling a lie that lots of kids fully transition. They don't. I'd be interested to see your stats about how many actually use binders.