Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

But I don't. And I didn't say anything to give the impression that I do.

Good for you. I wasn't talking about you, nor addressing you.

Right, but I never actually said I was a world expert based on one service day, did I? I gave the example of the most recent training, as I did earlier as we did our LGBT youth last week. Never claimed I'm a world expert on that either.

Aye, course. Some of the most ridiculous things I've seen have come from more experienced teachers. I don't think it's anything to do with experience (hence why I'm knocking back the jibes about my 'expertise', because it's just my opinion/observations).

I was correcting your misunderstanding that Stonewall has input in every case. It doesn't.

Many of us feel the same way about Stonewall as you do.

At no point did I say or imply that. I don't need your input, thanks.

It wasn't actually meant as a criticism.

It was in agreement to the fact that even though I clearly have opposite views, I don't agree with many of Stonewall's antics either. For once, I actually wasn't being awkward!

Sex and gender are not the same thing. You can't change sex. You can talk to your child about body dysmorphia, and other possible trans issues.

I already put a link to summary as to how the term is used in Scotland.

I will put it again here:

www.cypcs.org.uk/faq/what-is-a-corporate-parent/

It's "difficult to grasp" because nothing you say makes any sense. You contradict yourself in almost every post. To be honest, you might as well be bleating "two legs baaaaad, four legs gooood". You don't believe it's a black and white issue, and I agree that that's true, it's nuanced. We used to call this stuff they now claim as a gender identity by the term "personality".

Males will always be male, and females will always be female, irrespective of their dress, their behaviour, what organs they've had removed and what lumps of flesh have been grafted on to create faux bits. A facimile of womanhood might be achievable, and vice versa, but that's not a change of sex, is it?

I don't think it's a coincidence that this denigration of the family and careers like yours are happening in Scotland. This is the country that tried to insert a "known person" between parents and their children, after all. That failed, because parents wouldn't stand for it. So now they've inserted an entire captured education system in there instead. Harder to get rid of, but we'll do it, somehow.

This is all your opinion, and not fact.

Btw, there is no "denigration of our careers". Back off. I would never insult someone's parenting, so don't think it's acceptable to slag off our profession just because you've got different beliefs.

The arrogance of a poster on MN thinking they know better than the entire education authority is....well.

Btw, I hope you're in Scotland too, otherwise there's a pretty racist element to your post.

'back off'
'piss off'
'fuck off'
'idiots'

You expect other posters to engage, listen to your nonsensical posts full of errors and insults, and afford you respect, where you offer none to others?

You misread my words.

Denigration of the family.

And careers like yours (ie supporting distressed kids, if I have understood correctly).

And yes, I'm in Scotland so take your petty "racism" crap and pop it on a slice of toast.

All of those were deserved.

If you dont want to engage with me you dont have to, but given that none were to you, your own phrase back atcha, "i don't need your input".

Hence why I clarified.

No, you questioned.

I clarified.

Are you absolutely sure you're in education?

'That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.'

This thread really has been a masterclass in that hasn't it! A poster who shares many of the same views as others calling them transphobic and telling them to piss off / calling them idiots. I hope they realise that if they shared their views with TRAs or many of the pupils they work with, they'd also be called transphobic. And then they may feel the injustice and endless desperate 'I'm really fucking not' that many gender critical women like me feel. I do not hate. I am not hateful or bigoted. I love kids. That's why I don't agree with the view of @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou that we should encourage labelling I want them to be fully themselves without having to adhere to gender stereotypes that limit them at best and harm them at worst. But @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou seems determined to accuse us of not caring about kids when we are trying to protect them and support them to be themselves. Their whole selves, without needing to choose a category to fit into.

Bit disingenuous from you there lynn given that we had this discussion on a previous thread and I had lots of sympathy and support for you regarding this.

I did use those insults and I stand by them everyone has a breaking point and being called dangerous, a monster and evil who allows children to be raped and doesnt care crosses the line.

I forgot everybody else is perfect!

No I'm not. I just come on MN threads and make it up for fun. Thank god for you, I'd forgotten my job.

No not really

I did it and they deserved it.

Poor GoingOnce - not only was she on the receiving end of some unpleasant criticism for a perfectly reasonable question but she's had to watch her thread be repeatedly derailed.
Still - as always happens - it's allowed for some excellent posts from some very knowledgeable mumsnetters to counter all sorts of myths and misinformation.

What matters most is the safeguarding of a very vulnerable group of children.

Bit disingenuous from you there lynn given that we had this discussion on a previous thread and I had lots of sympathy and support for you regarding this.

Please don't call me disingenuous.

We had what started as a conversation in good faith on both parts, then you started to be increasingly sarcastic and dismissive of other posters.

I pointed this out and exited the conversation after politely explaining why.

You said you would support me in an example I gave. I said I was pleased that you'd defend what you think is fair even if you felt it would be an unpopular decision. That doesn't mean I need to support you when I think you're being unfair to other posters as I believe you have been recently on this thread.

You yourself keep saying this is a nuanced debate, which it is, so it's silly to say that because we agreed on something and were speaking to each other respectfully on a thread that I somehow am disingenuous for saying your behaviour on this thread (and on the other one after I exited the conversation) has been really poor form. In my opinion, it has been.

Agreeing with someone or supporting someone in one instance (or even a number) isn't a pact to never in future say you think the other person is being disrespectful.

Detailed. The Mn term for disagreement.
You and OP would have been thrilled if it was 40 pages of how right you are.

Your last paragraph is so excruciating it's almost funny.

Where are you guys in solving world peace, eh?we could send in 'knowledgeable mumsnetters'