Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

That isn't what @Charley50 said though. She didn't say anything about medical transition. She said that the girls who transition in her school typically have many co morbidities. This isn't unique to her school - GIDS estimate that 30% of girls referred to them are autistic.

This is the problem though (ignoring your earlier rude response). Posts referring to data and statistics and children reporting with co-morbidities is all well ans good.

The OP is asking about a real life person. My incoherent flailing about, as you put it, is simply a reminder that , as I said earlier uptrend, numerous suggestions of telling their child all sorts of really quite unkind things, are not helpful.

I get that you're passionate about the issue and i don't necessarily disagree with that.

However, this is someone's child. And if it was yours, or anyone else's on the thread, I don't think the suggestions would sit as well.

I get that the general rule on this board is to promote the same ideas and dismiss anyone who says anything else. But I do honesrlu believe thar sometimes people forget we are not chatting idly about a concept. These are real people with real feelings (incidentally, as i am).

She made references to mastectomies.

Incidentally, I would object to the reference of autism as a co morbidity.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou
Do you think that transitioning fully -ie socially, hormones, top (if applicable) and genital surgery is the only outcome that we should be concerned about?
My child has socially transitioned and it does cause me distress. On the outside, you might see a child with a binder and short hair. I’m dealing with trying to ensure they don’t get access to testosterone online. Probably most ftm trans identifying people do not go on to have grs, because the surgery is extremely complex and has a high rate of complications. However the damage done to a female body by taking testosterone at high doses is huge.
Essentially premature menopause symptoms, risk of osteoporosis from a young age, increase in cardiovascular problems, atrophy of the vagina and uterus, permanent voice changes - these are just some of the problems.
This is devastating for me. I’m just trying to keep my immature, socially isolated, autistic child safe. I’m not alone having this experience. So for every young person you might see transitioning, there are a considerable percentage of devastated families in the background I can promise you.

Id tell him that you understand thats what they believe but its not what you believe, and that you wish his friends sibling happiness and health, but from your own research, you fear that this is a process with lots of dangers and the potential for regret is too huge.
That if he is hoping to change your mind on this or insinuate youre not allowed to believe in the truth, then thats a problem. Id ask him if he was going to cancel me then can he let you know, so you can stop doing his washing etc

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Actually I said I don't know if they have mastectomies or not, as it's not my place to ask them.. but as I said I know about the other aspects of them transitioning, and I also know that they have SEN, trauma and are care-experienced, because I work in SEN and see their files and history.

We have at least two girls a year with this profile. That's one education provider. How many girls is too many to be encouraged to take testosterone and bind their breasts? Do you know the side affects of taking testosterone?

Stop misrepresenting what I am saying.

Incidentally, I would object to the reference of autism as a co morbidity.
Earlier in the thread you tried to redefine transitioning.
Is this the standard tactic of 'words mean what I want them to mean; who needs common definitions"?

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou and yes, my school know my views, and have been shown the evidence for my views. They know I think we are letting these girls down.

I get that the general rule on this board is to promote the same ideas and dismiss anyone who says anything else. But I do honesrlu believe thar sometimes people forget we are not chatting idly about a concept. These are real people with real feelings (incidentally, as i am).

People here are not 'chatting idly about a concept'. Many are parents of children who identify as transgender. The rest of us are also concerned about what is happening to these children. The emphasis is on teenage girls since they are the cohort currently most affected by this.

This is nothing to do with what body modifications an adult may choose to make to their own body.

Ive seen posts talking about the different reasons for boys. Obviously a young effeminate gay boy who may have internalised homophobia is going to have different reasons than a 40 year old man who would have previously been simply a cross dresser and has decided they were a lesbian trapped in a mans body all along.

Youve probably seen more posts about the impact on teen girls though on the feminist board, especially since youre so new here

Stopwaiting, "rare" is subjective.
1 in 100,000? 1 in a million?
What is an "acceptable" level of surgery on healthy bodies?
The question of how we talk to twelve year olds about this is crucial. Primary schools seem to be going along with the confused and confusing language, and affirming children who are still learning vocabulary. Neurotypical kids understand that grownups say things they don't mean. Autistic kids take a lot longer to fathom the shades of grey between pure truth and outright lies.
Telling kids to "be kind" by using preferred pronouns and new names seems to me to be deeply unkind in the long term.
Neurotypical kids can and do "try out" trans identities, or take them on to conform to the group norms, because neurotypical kids are good at conforming. Autistic kids are more likely to get fixated on the trans identity, and they are the ones that don't understand this is a fiction like Santa and the Easter Bunny.
It can be awkward to find that your child was the one who told a friend that Santa isn't real. Being the kid that told the friend that trans isn't real takes awkward to a whole new level.
Not sure I have any advice for the OP, those are just some thoughts that might be relevant.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou
“I get that the general rule on this board is to promote the same ideas and dismiss anyone who says anything else. But I do honesrlu believe thar sometimes people forget we are not chatting idly about a concept. These are real people with real feelings (incidentally, as i am).”

We are real women with real children and some of us are parents of kids with ASD who have been told that they are born in the wrong body. We aren’t talking idly about concepts - we are talking about our own children and the indoctrination that is harming their mental health and in some cases their physical bodies.

I suspect you have embraced this ideology wholesale - is that the case? Do you believe people can change sex?

There’s a very selective denial of the reality through the whole discourse I’ve seen so far of denying that there is a chance of social contagion and now denying that ASD is a factor.

“I’m cancelling washing your pants then.” 😂😂😂😂😂
You just won Friday 🏆 !!!

Redefining words, or understanding words as a highly specific definition, is characteristic of autism. The nebulous nature of words in the social context is very hard to make sense, for an autistic person.
Some autistic people prefer not to think of autism as a disability. Most trans people don't think of trans as a "morbidity". That's the context i understand @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou saying they don't like ayutism to be called a "comorbidity".

@Branleuse yeah we get a lot of this - new posters coming on and telling us what we discuss is wrong or selective or uninformed or unkind or mean or…..

Usually it boils down to “I wish you would stop talking about it.”

@TeamSukhareva - that's the issue isn't it? If being trans isn't a health issue, why does it require any treatment? You can't simultaneously argue for gender dysphoria to be removed from the DSM while also lobbying for hormones and surgery to be available on the NHS. Both things can't be true at once.

And my autistic teen would probably argue his autism isn't a disability. The fact that he is unable to get public transport unsupervised would suggest otherwise.

@Clymene I hear you. My kids all embrace their ASD as a disability because they understand how difficult their lives are because of it - it absolutely changes how we as a family have to manage things like getting out of the door for a start.

Two of them weren’t formally diagnosed until a bit later which they feel messed up their confidence because they knew they were struggling and needed support. Redefining autism to not be a disability does no one any favours, least of all kids and parents who need support services.

But the new religion adherents either want to deny there is a link or more worryingly say that autistic kids are more likely to transition because they have pink brains in blue bodies or some other magical thinking. Or that kids with ASD are wild and especially out there at the forefront of gender magic.

Incidentally of the eight other parents I know who have teen daughters who are ASD, seven of them now have a non binary or trans kid.
One has a detransitioner who has lost two years of her life to this and was groomed online by adults to think she was a boy. Most of the girls have sensory and eating disorders. All of them are online constantly.

But this never happens does it.

@clymene I thought there was a misunderstanding that @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou was saying trans people are not commonly autistic. I think they are merely objecting to the word "comorbid".
Perhaps they will clarify.
It does matter because the OP here is "how do we talk to a 12yo" and it is safe to say that "comorbid" is the wrong linguistic register. Mention of autism would be an invasion of privacy, and I can't see how it's helpful in the conversation with a 12yo.

@WandaWomblesaurus and @Clymene have you not encountered the "my autism is actually a superpower/ stop medicalising my personality" perspective?
That is not my belief, but I do totally get why other people find it a useful viewpoint to take.

Comorbidity is a technical term. Some 12 yo might understand it some might not. Regardless there is no shame in having autism. I think it’s fine to talk about it in a general discussion about why some children might identify as trans. It’s part of the wider picture.
I can’t speak for all parents of trans identifying children with ASD but I certainly think it plays a role. People with autism can become obsessive with things, gender ideology can be one of those things. Similarly they may attribute their struggles socially to ‘being trans’ when actually they are having difficulty fitting into or finding friendship groups because of their neurodiversity.
As people get older they tend to find their tribe, but as a young teenager they don’t understand that this, hopefully, will happen for them.

I have a transgender GC. All the little cousins have had a simple explanation: "X has decided that she would prefer to be a boy and has chosen a new name." No big deal - they all just accept it.

He/she is indeed in autistic spectrum.