Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

I think that’s happening with our understanding of culture and psychology. We’re moving away from quite a sophisticated late twentieth-century social-scientific view of “identities” as social narrative constructions; and reverting to very limited late nineteenth/early twentieth century ideas about national identity, gender identity, cultural identity — which tend to be quasi-religious and all about innate souls and “feelings” and beliefs and stereotypes and mystification. So I do sometimes feel quite pessimistic about that, to be honest. Also sorry, v long post!

So fascinating, nightwaking moon!

This might be linked to something I believe I am now observing on social media among some groups of young activists:

A reduction in concerns explicitly based on material facts such as poverty or war or physical illness or how our sex is raped for being that sex and an increased focus on mental suffering, of being neurodiverse, or of having a gender identity which does not mach one's sex. Even in the context of discussions about racism the very crucial intersections between class/income and race are getting much less attention than they would have in the past, and more attention is focused on linguistic aspects of racism and the idea that privileged individuals can reform the situation by reforming themselves, even if nothing is done about job creation and taxation and wealth redistribution.

Even in topics such as the suffering caused by the Ukraine war mental suffering or the suffering of individuals with certain gender identities are covered much more than they would have been covered in the reporting of earlier wars, even the Syrian one. It's not that this would be wrong in any sense, to cover all kinds of suffering, but I think the balance has shifted somewhat.

And yes to the increased focus on national and other tribal identities. That is partly due to external events (larger migration flows), but it may also be because of a search for abstract identities?

All this is just some thoughts that came to me right now and may need more scrutiny.

Transgender is quite obviously 'a thing', but it's what sort of 'thing' it is that is in question.

Is it about souls which are 'born in the wrong body'?
Is it to do with social contagion amongst adolescent girls?
Is it about discomfort with changing bodies at puberty?
Is it about internalised homophobia?
Is it about being 'special'?
Is it sometimes a sexual fetish about being the opposite sex?
Or something else?

What sort of 'thing' do you think it is?

@OldCrone

The fact I disagree with all of the above is not the point.

It's the fact we argue the opposite.

Like my earlier point - if you were to tell me someone was ill but it was OK because they were going to be at peace with their parent/friend, as an atheist, would I say nah they're just going to die?

Of course I wouldn't!

So why would we start drivelling on about periods?

I don't disagree. I really don't.

I just don;t like the venom (incidentally, you're the first post I've managed to agree with and see).

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou - yes. And I know that 'changing' that involves chest-binding, testosterone, and mastectomy, is not an easily reversible thing, and these young people are being let down by 'safeguarding' teams, nationwide.

I'd be interested to know your statistics of young people that have mastectomies.

So why do you think it wasn’t a “thing” before sexology, artificial hormones and plastic surgery? And, crucially, why do you think “transsexualism” (as opposed to “cross-dressing”), became a thing nearly exactly coexistent with the development and use of antibiotics?

Before antibiotics, any surgery at all was rare, and likely to kill from infection. It’s only in the post-antibiotic era that unnecessary and routine surgeries became possible.

How far would the idea of being “transgender” persist if we could no longer synthesise artificial hormones or perform surgery? With the rise in antibiotic resistance, that might well happen at some future point.

These are perfectly valid and widespread philosophical, psychological, historical and medical fields, and questions that scholars have been writing books on for centuries. You can’t erase these whole domains just by crying “Please don’t! We must not say these things!” People have been saying and writing long books about them for yonks. The questions aren’t going to go away, just because you don’t like them!

What are you going to do, erase vast swathes of library holdings on sociology, psychology, history, medicine, gender and sexuality studies and feminism? (Though this is in fact what some people would like to do!)

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou I think you're saying that we should let people live their lives as they want to, as far as we can. And also that we don't necessarily need to tell someone their comforting belief is "wrong" even if we don't believe in it ourselves (the religion/heaven example).

I agree with you in general on these points and it sounds like you're a kind person.

If teenagers being trans was only about clothes, hair and preferred names, I'd agree with you that we might as well let them get on with it. The problem for me is the link to medical treatment. I'm really worried about teenagers (and very young adults) undergoing irreversible medication and surgery which they may later regret.

I also don't think we should be telling boys that they can identify into girl's spaces. It's doing both the boy and the girls a disservice.

And the fact that schools are teaching this crap is what is confusing our children so much. They trust and believe what they are taught by teachers, if it's taught as fact, rather than belief. That's fucked up. It's becoming embedded into education, at all levels.

Yes!

I don't agree with transition, not at that age.

I just don't object to transgender in principle.

BTW - again, your posts are some of the best I've seen. Can I ask your background?

This is why I hope you don't work in education.

Praise from MN is one thing but you have a professional responsibility.

What on earth are you on about? Where did I mention periods? And what do you mean you disagree with all of the above? Do you disagree with everything everyone else has said on this thread?

What has someone dying got to do with any of this?

Are you saying that you believe that people can be 'born in the wrong body'? You are free to believe that, but you can't compel others to believe.

One of my kid's friends thinks she's "pan-sexual" she's 12 FGS. She's never had sex. It's just what she THINKS she should say to look cool, not be called a bigot.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I really do.

I come from a standpoint of someone who works in education.

I have never, in a number of years, seen someone transition.

I have known two adult transitioners - incidentally, both F-M.

I also don't think we should be telling boys that they can identify into girl's spaces. It's doing both the boy and the girls a disservice.

I agree. It's not that I think the trans child is particularly likely to be predatory. But it's not fair to any of them to tell them it's fine for a male person to identify into girls' spaces and the girls should just accept this to be kind, even if they feel uncomfortable getting changed next to someone with a penis. I think we should treat the trans child kindly of course, and many schools seem to be able to find a separate space for them to change in if they wish, which seems a good compromise

I agree.

This is a brilliant resource to share with your children's schools who may feel uncertain or nervous of what their policy on these issues should/can be legally:

https://twitter.com/sexmattersorg/status/1519717992019410944?s=21&t=XDRDwCe-O5u4NC9nadwcwg

@OldCrone Yes, other than disappearinggirl, I disagree with every point

My point about dying was that religion, or the afterlife, is a belief.

I believe you can be born in the wrong body, yes, but I can't compel others to believe.

In the same way that someone who is not an atheist, which I am, doesnt agree that we go on to heaven. However I don't correct them. Why? Why don't I do that?

As per the periods, that wasn't you. I'm still missing this bloody quote function (I've started tagging for that reason) A poster up thread said they would explain to OPs DD that the periods might be making them think differently.

Do you guys honestly believe you could go into a school with a printed out policy and the headteacher would agree that oh yes we are uncertain and nervous, thanks so much for your help? truly?

stopwaiting you are answering really thoughtfully about trans children - can I ask you a wider question? You are adamant that children should be able to identify as their preferred gender; if such a child grows up still identifying as the opposite gender, should a male who identifies as a transwoman be placed in a female prison if they commit a criminal offence?

Same happens at my kids school.

It's my occupation.

Of course you can.

No. I don't believe so. Which I appreciate doesn't fit into the narrative, but I don't believe it's a black and white issue.

Pansexual is a sexuality. Completely different issue.

Which incidentally - I don't agree with at 12. This is why I struggle with people having opinions on the whole concept when in actual fact they are unable to separate gender and sexuality.

You work in education but you have never encountered a child who said they wanted to transition?

Unless you work in EY, I find that extraordinary

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou