husband called me a terf 😡

[3kidsandcounting2022]

Dd 8 had always preferred playing with boys and most of her interests aren't things her other peers dont like or understand. She has been saying she wants to be a boy for a while now and my response is that she can't be and she cant wear and play with what she likes.
She wears clothing from the boy section and she can play with anything she wants. Anyway dh is under the impression that she is transgender and we need to support her with it.
Long story short we had a massive row that ended in him calling me a terf.
I honestly dont know what to do :(

Sorry, OP, just incensed on your behalf!

Ask him what his attitude would be if when she is older she were to feel she is a lesbian rather than trans?

As he feels his brother was mistreated for being gay, perhaps he might see he should be leaving very, very young DD space to grow up to find out what she wants in due course.

Your child is 9 years old, this is far far far too big a topic to be addressing at 9! They change their whims with the wind at 9! Your husband is massively over reacting and will confuse your daughter so much more by keep going on about it.

Also, liking boys toys and wanting to 'be a boy' are so different, he's reading too much into it

If he's prepared to be open-minded, asking him to read Helen Joyce's Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality would be a good place to start (as PPs have suggested above). It's an excellent introduction to the history of the issue and only came out in 2021, so up-to-date.

Is he normally patient? Some people just want to make a decision and take action whatever that may be just so they feel they’re doing something. I would definitely recommend waiting.

You could also ask if he’d feel the same way if any other group was backing this - ie if the Catholic Church wanted to transition underage minors or if the stonemasons were the ones to push mixed sex prisons and sports? I think that would mean much more scrutiny and pushback.

You've also said

Your job as parents is to educate her about what is trans, what that may mean for her and her options in terms of how she identifies. This should be taught alongside sexuality and how it is separate from gender identity.

Can you, a person who believes in gender identity and thinks adults can educate children on it, describe some of the things that might make a male, say, believe they are female?

Just two or three of the most obvious things?

At the moment nothing apart from wanting me to look a a book he's ordered from amozen.

It's highly likely to be very sexist.

That word is useful, sexism. It's mostly about sexism.

Another book is "irreversible damage" by Abigail Shrier, specifically about girls.

Anderson and bowers are on the board of WPATH, Anderson operated on Jazz Jennings.

If he won't read the book, this is her sub stack: abigailshrier.substack.com/p/why-marci-matters

Anderson and Bowers said other important things too. While they both pointed out that “Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria” is not an accepted diagnosis, Anderson acknowledged that the population of teen girls currently claiming to be transgender suddenly in adolescents may be a very different population from the typical patients of gender dysphoria.

About these teen girls, Anderson said:

I think that's a really important question to ask is are these different kids first and if they are, should we be treating them differently than the early presenters, the children who well before puberty asserted gender different than we thought they had? And I think it's an open question and you've written about this. I have a copy of your book. I've read most of your book, by the way. And you raise an interesting question: Is there something going on with our teenage girls? And the answer I would give is yes. Do we know what it is precisely? No.
Anderson told me she is troubled by the lack of time and skill some gender therapists show in differentiating some of these girls from the classic, early presentations of gender dysphoria. She said: “I've had literally some kids tell me that. Well, why do you want to be a boy? Are you a boy? Oh yeah, boys have it easier than girls.”

I know your daughter is 9 but she's clearly never had issues with gender when she was younger, and you say she may well be close to puberty anyway.

You husband needs to learn about the physical impact on the body of cross sex hormones for women, as well as pbs.

As Cass says, social transition is not a neutral act either.

If the leaders of WPATH are reading Shriers book and becoming concerned, it's the least your husband could do.

I think being practical it may help to establish that you both want whats going to be best for her today and in the future. It’s a simple thing but it’s easy when you have a conflict about parenting to lose sight of that, that you both want whats best and you have faith that your spouse is trying their best.

Establish that then say ok lets have a look at what the evidence says about desistance rates, how therapy works for “trans” kids (the affirmation model for example doesn’t try to figure out really if there’s something else going on). having an open non angry dialogue is important. Perhaps point him towards de-trans women who can talk about the long term impact of transitioning etc. no-one can hear each other when they are angry. And tbh I have a lot of sympathy because I would be furious but take the confrontation out of it and try to listen without judgement and ask him to listen without judgement and focus on your DD and not on being “right”. The consequences for your DD would be heavy if you guys get it wrong. I think it is better not to get bogged down in the ideology etc because he’s not thinking about that, he thinks your DD is unhappy and he he thinks he can fix it for her which is what many parents try to do.

also could look for a therapist who doesn’t follow the affirmation model.

Sending solidarity @3kidsandcounting2022 your DD sounds like my 11 YO DD. I'm very fortunate that DH is on the same page as me; that there is absolutely nothing 'wrong' with DD, she can wear what she likes and have the interests she likes without having to alter herself to fit utterly toxic stereotypes.

DD has started her periods and is well into puberty, I really hope that means that we are some way out of the woods in terms of someone 'well meaning' getting hold of her.

It is terrifying to be a parent of a girl that rejects the princess stereotype.

I always dressed DD is trousers and trainers so that she could play freely and encouraged physical fun play. I sometimes really wish I hadn't.

Oh god. Have we all forgotten that until 5 minutes ago being like this as a child was totally normal? Tom boys have existed forever. Some grow up to be lesbian or bisexual women. Some grow out of it. A tiny tiny tiny fraction might grow up with gender dysphoria which requires treatment.

You are doing the right thing and your husband really needs to research the implications of grooming this child into gender ideology. Let them be.

I think your dd is very lucky to have two parents that care so much about her well-being and accept her non conformity. You have so much good advice already but I wanted to add not to demonise your DH he is coming from a good place, it’s just misguided.

Also, I at the age of 2 or 3 wanted to dress like a boy and do boy things. Grew up to be a masculine presenting, same sex attracted woman. It is completely normal to be like this. Not it doesn't automatically mean trans. It's actually very homophobic to assume so.

@3kidsandcounting2022

It's fine for your dh to tell her that as an adult she can identify as male or non binary, you love her just the way she is. Stress that only adults can make those decisions

The biggest issue is that men will believe anything another man tells them about women, over and above what actual women they know tell them about their own experience.

Back to women and girls hiding under the cover of long hair, dresses, handbags, make up...

I wonder if some men just think ‘phew I don’t have to deal with seeing males in ‘female attire’ in the mens loos. Women can deal with it’.

I was a tomboy. Climbed trees, played football and had Action Man not Barbie. I only wore a skirt when it was mandatory etc. I wasn’t trans I was just me. I still hate the stereotyped restrictions placed on women decades later. I am a straight women with two sons in my 50’s who enjoys chatting about sport with my DS. I still rarely wear skirts (I can’t remember the last time I did).
I dread to think how I would be treated as a child today.

Rejecting outdated misogynistic gender stereotypes is a good thing not something to be pathologised and medicalised.

I am yet to see a definition of gender identity that doesn’t have stereotypes at its core. Does your DH really think your DD should be pigeonholed into narrow constructs. Tell him to celebrate her for her originality and self expression without trying to force her into artificial definitions and conformity.

You need to get your sphere of influence back with your daughter. Does this come from school? It's dangerous indoctrination.

You need to deprogramme your husband, it's not easy. Ask him why you can't be a transwoman?

Use Socratic method throughout; ask him to explain why he believes in this ideology. It will unravel it in his head. You can't "tell" this stuff, you have to get them to ask the questions they aren't asking.

Can humans change sex?
How?
It's all cosmetic isn't it?

Can she be a boy? How? It's not possible.

What a weak minded man. Be patient though, you certainly don't want to split up and have to co-parent with him from afar because he has the establishment on his side with this.

Why aren't teachers countering this? Why aren't they saying we can't change sex, we can't - why are teachers not speaking out?

How can school be seen as fit for purpose when teachers are silent on this? Children look to teachers for the "right" answers, if teachers aren't countering it they are affirming it.

The breasts contain lymph nodes for drainage. Removing them is going to cause health problems, stop the immune system working properly.

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 25/04/2022 08:01
Also, I at the age of 2 or 3 wanted to dress like a boy and do boy things. Grew up to be a masculine presenting, same sex attracted woman. It is completely normal to be like this. Not it doesn't automatically mean trans. It's actually very homophobic to assume so.

Re what Jules says here:
No it doesn’t automatically mean trans. It’s actually very homophobic to assume so.

I wonder if your DH realises this, considering he knows about the harm homophobia caused his brother?

@thebeespyjamas because we would get fired! Biology teachers teach the biology. The rest of us have to be supportive. We have to be unpolitical and neutral about our views.