Single sex spaces

[Notcreativeatall]

Genuine question here
is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

@endofthelinefinally

"If men are at risk of other men in a toilet, surely they can just call the police, like we are told if we are at risk of a man in a female toilet."

I thought the advice was to "tut" loudly and move away. Or avert our eyes - oh, no wait, that was if a man was exposing his penis in a spa.

It is hard to keep up tbh.

Maybe other men in the toilet wouldn't be a threat.

I know it’s been said a lot, but third spaces would work for blokes like OJ who would happily share with trans people, women like Lisa Nandy, who see souls, women who don’t mind one way or the other, dads with kids, mums with older sons who may not feel safe on their own yet, transwomen, transmen who don’t feel safe in male spaces but don’t want to use women’s...

And I’d love to know why this is not acceptable- because if it’s just about validating someone’s gender identity then I’m sorry- that is NOT the purpose of women or men only facilities. They are to provide the safety and dignity that people (especially women) need. A third space would provide that for trans people so what is the issue?

discuss the best way to go about eliminating us from public life

Fuck me. Thought my teenager was good at hyperbole and Drama…

the best way to go about eliminating us from public life

It's DARVO, seeing as the presence of males like Butterfly ensure some women have limited access to public life. Not limited to but including, rape victims,DV victims and religious women.

It also shows how its all about validation. Be trans. But just understand it only matters to you. Your identity does not matter to anyone else. The level.of paranoia thay you stop existing unless you are validated by women needs help to over come.

No one cares.

We are down to the real nitty gritty which is not the obvious need for TQ+ people to have accessible spaces (which would be the mixed sex ones) but the need for male people to be able to maintain without interruption the illusion of being female. And to exclude female people from resources and services and spaces even when they are in urgent need is just and appropriate in achieving this for those male people. And this policy has and is right now this minute, meaning women are in prisons and hospital wards in distress and suffering assault and rape in the name of those males living their best lives.

This is just fantastically sexist.

And it illustrates why females have been forced to set hard lines. There is nothing wrong with being a TW, be proud, I absolutely support you as a TW. TW and female is not the same thing, they are two different groups with two different needs. Females are not a sub kind of lower class human and they are entitled to have access and equality.

If that interrupts some of the illusion of being female then I'm afraid so be it, there is no way around that part. Those females pay taxes and have needs and lives and rights too. The limits of freedom of gender identity end at someone else's sex based rights.

We are down to the real nitty gritty which is not the obvious need for TQ+ people to have accessible spaces (which would be the mixed sex ones) but the need for male people to be able to maintain without interruption the illusion of being female.

Well put - exactly this.

We are down to the real ni*y gri*y

Please don't use this racist term, we had enough trouble on the feminism board with the whole "Karen" saga.

I wasn't aware it was, so please regard that as used in innocence.

Have googled. Am horrified.

This issue could be resolved in 2 minutes.

Make men's toilets the gender neutral ones.
Make men's changing rooms the gender neutral ones.
Make men's refuges the gender neutral ones.
Make gender neutral spaces in male prisons.

Done. Dusted. Nobody is outed. Nobody is at risk. Job done.

Male sports? Nah lets make them gender neutral. Open to anyone.

@AlisonDonut

This issue could be resolved in 2 minutes.

Make men's toilets the gender neutral ones.
Make men's changing rooms the gender neutral ones.
Make men's refuges the gender neutral ones.
Make gender neutral spaces in male prisons.

Done. Dusted. Nobody is outed. Nobody is at risk. Job done.

And then charge, convict and imprison any man abusing or assaulting anyone within those gender neutral spaces.

butterfly I don't think you are helping your case - i started this thread as I think there is a divide between fully transitioned people and others- particularly those with just a bit of paper - in terms of the threat they pose and the perceived(culture? nature? social) issue of having someone with a different body in your space. i also very much had sympathy with the desire to maintain the illusion of being female that my friend Annie and you have. I'd also restricted the question to toilets where the nudity taboo isn't a problem.
Whilst i may feel that for post surgery people who have reduced testosterone levels may not be such a threat in a public toilet - you seem to be saying its all or nothing and so it would need to be nothing.
I would be perfectly happy to (and do ) use mixed sex toilet facilities - why wouldn't you?

If TW can be granted consideration for their perceived feelings and challenges and preference for space and who they share a toilet with,

The exact same consideration has to be extended to females.

Interesting that the issues for females who cannot share a mixed sex space, or simply don't want to, gets unpacked and criticised in those terms 'culture/nature/social' as if these are just silly choices on their part. There is however no unpacking or criticism for males at all.

If females can just shut up, cope, get over it or self exclude and do without with no one caring, then for my money TW can equally apply those recommended strategies and use the male space. Personally I think that's unnecessarily uncaring and unkind, but I will not support different standards based on a belief that people born male matter more and deserve more and that female people can be treated with much less care and consideration.

If everyone's needs and feelings matter equally then it's third spaces.

One or the other.

There is also an issue of drift. If a transitioned male can be considered a female for toilets, they will then say it is negative discrimination to exclude them in sport, in rape crisis centres etc.

We have already seen this logic being used. One person doing this is McKinnon/Ivy.

We have seen that with language too.

So….. where is the boundary now? Because it will certainly look different in a few years time. And a few years after that and so on.

There is also an issue of drift. If a transitioned male can be considered a female for toilets, they will then say it is negative discrimination to exclude them in sport, in rape crisis centres etc.

I agree and that is partly why my red line is no males in any single sex women's services or spaces.

And this red line has been forced into being by “no debate” and accusations of bigotry. There was a time for this conversation- women were shut out of it and slurred. So that time has passed I’m afraid.

@Notcreativeatall

I don’t mind someone with a different body using my safe spaces. Fat women , thin women, women with disabilities, woman of all ethnicities.

It’s not just about bodies - I don’t mind how they identity in terms of race, religion, gender, species, sexuality.

I don’t care as long as they are women.

I am perfectly happy for you to use mixed sex toilet facilities. I’m not happy for me to use them.

Why does it bother you so much that I make different choices from you? Why are so desperate to control me?

There’s two very easy solutions here

Mixed toilets and womens toilets
Mixed toilets, womens toilets and mens toilets

Easy peasy. But yet , for some reason, not good enough for the TRAs and MRAs. They hate hate HATE women now having anything for themselves.

But most of all, they hate women having the right to say no.

morven i don't care whether you use mixed toilets or not- my point was to butterfly that trans people can't use the excuse that using mixed sex toilets is outing

How could using mixed sex toilets be outing?
It’s as if the very point was to somehow infiltrate women’s spaces. Surely not

Not just ‘outing’ to use mixed sex toilets. But humiliatingly and potentially life-threateningly dangerously outing.

Because women have said no, we get told this so that we are now to blame.

I saw a very direct thread over the past few days on twitter. This entire mess was created because a few males who felt they could not be males so the only other option was to be ‘women’ were affirmed. And it stemmed from there. The creation of generations of people believing their identity makes them the opposite sex and entitled to access the provisions set up for the needs of females due to their sexed bodies.

Instead of believing they can present themselves however they want but need to live with their material reality otherwise.

I personally don't think we should worry about this " outing " stuff. First up most don't pass as well as they think they do and secondly no one cares. No one is interested in looking at them yelling oooh look they are outing themselves as X using this space. If I started talking aviut how I thought everyone was looking at me or hated me I'd be told to seek help.

But we indulge unhealthy, irrelevant and extremely paranoia with this.

Why?

That is the question scully.