Single sex spaces

[Notcreativeatall]

Genuine question here
is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

But they aren't your spages butterfly

They never were. The answer is just no.

So I take it that this:

With EA2010 in place, however, this guidance appears to be self-contradictory and unenforcable. I think it would largely depend on how self-destructive I was feeling on a daily basis whether I would either bother to challenge it, resign myself to an existence where the dream of not being harrassed daily is just a memory, or just stop existing in public anymore.

Was the answer to:

When a mixed sex toilet provision is made, and a clearly signed ‘female single sex' toilet is available for the females, will a transitioned male disrespect the needs of those females by entering into that toilet?

And if they do respect it and stay out of the female toilet, what would we be policing if all toilets are configured in such a way, ie. That signage states female only clearly. Surely no ‘policing’ is needed because no males would enter unless they had ill intent

So… that is a maybe? Maybe some days?

That is telling us that if there was a mixed sex provision also there that you would feel that it is ‘self destructive’ for you to even consider using the mixed sex provision and to leave the female single sex space for those who are female (not just had their documents legally changed to reflect that) out of respect to those females knowing you are not female but a male except on some legal documents.

Just to clarify, forgetting all the emotional distraction you tried to throw at my question - you know your presence would cause some female’s distress but you will not use a mixed sex provision out of respect because you consider this ‘self destructive’?

Thanks for answering.

And why is using a toilet set aside fir males damaging to your mental.health?

I've had to go into male toilets for cleaning purposes. Little girls go in with their fathers . Literally mentally nothing happens.

Its not our fault you lied to everyone at work for years and are now scared of them finding out. I actually think they would have a right to be a bit angry at you fir that and you should have the guts to face it.

Are penises the problem, are Y chromosomes the problem, is male socialisation the problem, or is there some fundamental essence of maleness that inherently taints all it touches with a single drop?

The problem is males. You cannot extract different parts of the whole to asses what is the actual problem.

Men assault, rape and harass women at an alarming rate. In studies many more men have said they would rape women if they thought they could get away with it. Until males stop behaving like this, and putting females at risk by their behaviour, single sex spaces are needed.

Especially as so many men actually get NO PUNISHMENT for their crimes, because the system is more worried about a male's reputation and future than the female whose reputation and future he just destroyed.

The cognitive distortion being used here is ‘catastrophising.’ Butterfly is using it to overplay the effects of asking all transitioned males to respect female single sex spaces and turn it into a life threatening (the theme of that entire post) request.

What's the aim? Elimination of trans women from single sex spaces. (Or protection of sex-based rights, if you prefer to use the dogwhistle). Is it proportionate? You tell me. I've only lived here for a couple of decades. Are there other reasonable alternatives? Yes. You could...not?

Butterfly

What is the aim?

To provide females with single sex spaces that are 100% female only when they are needed (except those male children). Not almost 100% because it includes some males over about 8 years old.

Why? Read the many threads and posts why it is needed. Traumatised women and girls, religious needs, or just for women and girls who want privacy away from any male. And I use women and girls here exclusively for those who are female.

Or protection of sex-based rights, if you prefer to use the dogwhistle)

Let the denigration begin!!

Here is another activist tactic. A negative generalisation cognitive distortion around denigrating any one using the term ‘sex based rights’ (which I have been using since my uni days in the 90s, not a new term at all) as ‘dog whistling’.

No, butterfly. I am not virtue signaling or any other kind of ‘signaling’. I will leave that to you. I am discussing the rights of females.

Are there other reasonable alternatives? Yes. You could...not?

And this is projection.

To use your own words butterfly,

Yes. You could…. Not?

We happen to know some transitioned males who do use the male or mixed sex spaces provided.

And do so without any negative repercussions.

What makes them different to you in your mind?

And it wowouldn'be abger because youbare trans . It woyld be anger because you lied. Most of the issues claimed to be faced are because of self created situations. If trans people were honest about who they were, and respected the boundaries of others there wouldn't be a problem.

Instead they create the victim hood required to bolster their " case" by deliberately doing things like acting as of consent doesn't matter , cheating at sport, just so they have a sob story to justify it all .

We see it. We don't buy it. Your emotional blackmail will not work. They are your problems to solve not ours. Take responsibility

The reality of the situation is that if you are requiring female people to compromise (by which you do actually seem to mean just to give up and not use that service at all if need be) then TW can be required to compromise too.

Which is what this guidance says, in that some services, resources and facilities can be kept as female only, with alternative and additional services provided for TQ+ people.

This has been necessary because as you demonstrate in your post: TQ+ people are never willing to care or compromise to meet female need and it has become necessary for legal protections for females to be clarified so they are not bounced out of their spaces by their being mixed sex. This may work for you but it does not work for all females . Who are as human as you are and not lower than you in the pecking order.

This.

A relative, now retired, used to plan public buildings. About 10 years ago he was in charge of a refurb of a university. He was told to put in all gender neutral washrooms and loos.
He ignored that as he thought it ridiculous and put in 3 lots in each space. Male, female and mixed. Such an obvious solution.

I have no idea how best to help her deal with the reality that there are somewhere between 13,000 and 200,000 trans people living in the UK. It might be the case that there is just no way to balance her needs with the reality of the situation without compromise.

And here we see the truth.

butterfly is telling running’s mother that that mother has to effectively ‘suck it up’.

Because transitioned males prioritise themselves every time. Putting this together with the answer to my question that even with a mixed sex provision available, some transitioned males will not respect the needs of females for single sex spaces.

I would hate to be putting words into your mouth here butterfly. Is this truly what you believe? That you should still use any female single sex space regardless of having a mixed sex provision as well, and running’s mothers needs don’t take priority. Knowing it would cause her distress, you would still use that female space?

Hard no. No men in women's spaces, ever. We tried being "kind"*. We thought it was just a handful of harmless gay guys who hate, and alter their bodies. It's not. Self-id (and we do basically have it, thanks to stonewall encouraging orgs to "get ahead of the law") means any man, the worst man you've ever met, all men are allowed in women's spaces. No thank you.

*not that anyone asked us first

Are penises the problem, yes. But even without a penis, a male is still a male and has physical advantages over females unless puberty blockers taken from prior to puberty.

are Y chromosomes the problem,
Partly, if that Y chromosome means body has experienced any virulisation.

is male socialisation the problem, Yes! And it starts from birth and it also comes from just knowing you are male.

or is there some fundamental essence of maleness that inherently taints all it touches with a single drop?

Oh. A minimising tactic. How unusual?

The only group of people I know who discusses ‘essences’ and ‘a feeling of ‘man or woman’, is not the group of feminists.

So, this is projection isn’t it?

is male socialisation the problem

Well yes, I imagine it's your male socialisation that means you think it's ok to treat women as lesser beings. To discount their feelings, to invade their privacy, to compromise their dignity, to lie and gaslight them.

Live demonstration right here that you can't surgically remove male entitlement. If anything your entitlement is much greater than other males because in general they understand the need to give women their own spaces.

I've seen plenty of cis people be 'accused' of being trans over the years, however, so even then false positives must be so hard for your mother to deal with.

This is a ‘maximizing’ technique here.

Now the issue is yes, the availability of testosterone being used in micro amounts by some females to cosmetically enhance their look, will cause future issues.

Those very few females that are mistaken for males without the micro dosing of testosterone has been rather conveniently exaggerated.

And all any of those females have to do is firstly acknowledge that they have tried to appear masculine and have succeeded to themselves. And to the patient, talk to the patient requesting a female health care provider about the patient’s options.

Women being mistaken for being male is an age old occurrence. Most women I know, and as my experience as a girl, deal with it and don’t take offense. Usually hearing a female voice combine with other sub conscious cues such as gait, hands etc will quickly dispel any concern.

I think I've already said more than a lifetime's worth on the subject of nipping to the loo at a service station, and it's pretty depressing to discuss the best way to go about eliminating us from public life, so I think we done for now unless there are any more questions?

@ButterflyHatched

I don't think we are done because you still haven't answered why your distress is more important than my mum's. Please tell me why third spaces are not the answer.
Please answer my question as to why you are more important than women.

I have no idea how best to help you deal with the reality that there are almost 35 million women living in the UK and they deserve safety, dignity and a voice.

Just exist in mine, which I have done all my adult life and most of my teenage years too.

We have been through this on other threads with you. They were never ‘your’ spaces.

You haven’t told us whether you have been campaigning for third spaces (that everyone can use since we are constantly told by some women they have no issue with mixed sex spaces) in the months since you have been on this board.

Have you been campaigning for those spaces?

it's pretty depressing to discuss the best way to go about eliminating us from public life

The degree of self absorption in that statement says it all. Emotionally manipulative aside. It is yet another cognitive distortion - polarization.

The ‘all or nothing’ tactic.

so I think we done for now unless there are any more questions?

Some great work done here on this thread. A great live demonstration of extreme trans activist tactics. Thank you.

Women here (and elsewhere) have been saying third spaces for years now.

Posters like Butterfly keep saying no.

Women offer compromise, posters like Butterfly say no.

Is it any wonder women now say we’ve lost the will to try and help?

Women here (and elsewhere) have been saying third spaces for years now

Its been obvious all along what the real agenda is.

Self ID was bill because the very men that would be allegedly attacking them in the mens could just follow them into the ladies. So how would it help?

Mixed sex spaces are only ok if they replace the single sex spaces.

Along side single sex spaces and there's a problem.

We all see it.

Oh butterfly. I engaged with you in good faith and got a few angry responses from other pps for my pains. But now I see why they were so angry because despite the numerous mentions of third spaces, you seem to be stuck on your being able to access women's spaces, or it will be the end of your life as you know it. Why isn't a safe third space an acceptable solution?
Why is it up to women to provide the solution? Women aren't campaigning for the eradication of trans. Just for the preservation of safe spaces for women.

This is what it always comes down to, and why women have had to mobilise again. Because it was never about trans rights or acceptance. It’s about men accessing women’s private spaces and not taking no for an answer.
All reasonable people see that third spaces are the easy answer. All unreasonable people keep agitating to be let into women’s spaces where they do not belong.
The men who want to be in women’s spaces are the very reason we need women’s spaces.

Is forcing me to humiliatingly and potentially life-threateningly dangerously out myself to every single person in a public space every time I need to go for a piss, at great cost to my own mental health and wellbeing, a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim?

did anyone pick up on this? what unmitigated tripe.

life threatening

ffs

Is forcing me to humiliatingly and potentially life-threateningly dangerously out myself to every single person in a public space every time I need to go for a piss, at great cost to my own mental health and wellbeing, a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim?

If men are at risk of other men in a toilet, surely they can just call the police, like we are told if we are at risk of a man in a female toilet.

That's proportionate innit?

Oh and Butterfly lay off on the trying to imply my Mum is some nasty bigot who needs to learn to set aside her trauma, she is a kind, generous lady who spent half the night at my cousin's wedding chatting and dancing with a Transwoman friend of the groom. She would happily sit next to you on the train and over share with you. She campaigned for gay rights back in 60's and had flat mates from a huge range of diverse backgrounds. She has supported friends and family through also sorts situations without ever uttering a word of judgement. She would be horrified to think her need for a single sex space made you feel threatened (but for the umpteenth time third spaces). So why does this kind, funny, gentle woman need to give up her freedom so you can keep yours?

"If men are at risk of other men in a toilet, surely they can just call the police, like we are told if we are at risk of a man in a female toilet."

I thought the advice was to "tut" loudly and move away. Or avert our eyes - oh, no wait, that was if a man was exposing his penis in a spa.

It is hard to keep up tbh.

@endofthelinefinally

"If men are at risk of other men in a toilet, surely they can just call the police, like we are told if we are at risk of a man in a female toilet."

I thought the advice was to "tut" loudly and move away. Or avert our eyes - oh, no wait, that was if a man was exposing his penis in a spa.

It is hard to keep up tbh.

Instead of using women as a human shield to encroach on women's spaces, I wonder why it's unthinkable for BH to recruit male allies to use as a human shield to use male spaces, if the shield is necessary.

Grayson Perry, Fionne Orlander, Miranda Yardley and others use male spaces.

BH —there's a very decent chance that FWR would support you if you were to broaden the bandwidth of what it means to be a man and assert your right to be in male spaces.