Breaking news - Emily won't compete

[Doyoumind]

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/60934099

I’m hoping that this a “Laura Kenny” moment. Laura is just 5’4”, seems like “the girl next door” but has cleared worked bloody hard and with utter commitment to achieve the success she has, including now competing as a mother and making a comeback after pregnancy and all that entails. Something that Emily will never have to or be able to do. If Emily - a 21 (?) year old fairly successful male cyclist - had been allowed to compete against Laura and others from our Olympic team, it would have made an utter mockery of everything Laura Kenny has worked and trained so hard for.

The last paragraph of the Guardian article quoted a sports body so at least there is now recognition that fair play for women cannot exist with total inclusion for trans people but effectively TW.

It also told sports that as a result there was no easy way to balance safety, fairness and trans inclusivity – and that they would have to prioritise which to favour.

I do hate it when these governing bodies say - “there needs to more research”. The science is out there and it’s very clear! What more do they need?!

Also if they’re proposing yet more research that will take time to conduct and analyse. I’d be concerned that they will say “well we’ll carry on with our current rules until the research shows us otherwise.”

@MrsOvertonsWindow

It will be fascinating to see the actual reasons that forbid Emily from competing as a man one week and then as a woman the next?

No doubt a cue for much wailing about transphobes stopping Emily competing as a man one week and a woman the next.

It's the international governing body (Union Cycliste Internationale) that has a policy that you can't compete as a woman if you are a man.

Are Emily's qualifications good enough for a spot on the male team? If so then Emily could still compete this weekend. A male teammate could give up his spot no problem, right?

I imagine she failed the 5nmols testosterone for a year rule.
No one seems to be saying why the change of mind in letting her compete

A male teammate could give up his spot no problem, right?

I really think someone should, to show their commitment to trans rights.

It's the international governing body (Union Cycliste Internationale) that has a policy that you can't compete as a woman if you are a man.

What a sensible policy. It will never catch on!

Why can't TW delay taking hormone altering drugs much like women delay having a baby?

Few elite women would consider having a baby at 21 due to the effect it will have on their performance, they sacrifice what they want for what they need to do to be the best they can be.
A TW can still live as a TW and still want to take medication to make them look more like a TW, they just have to wait until they want to stop competing (in their sex category)

@Dinosauria

Why can't TW delay taking hormone altering drugs much like women delay having a baby?

Few elite women would consider having a baby at 21 due to the effect it will have on their performance, they sacrifice what they want for what they need to do to be the best they can be.
A TW can still live as a TW and still want to take medication to make them look more like a TW, they just have to wait until they want to stop competing (in their sex category)

Yep. And as identity has no connection with biology, this does not stop them transitioning

@WellNotReally

Let's get rid of men's sports competition. We can have female events and open events. Sorted.

I don't know what it was but Cathy Devine had an argument against that at the recent OU GCRN event (recorded, don't know when it will be uploaded).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4502585-Free-online-talk-Cathy-Devine-Sex-gender-identity-and-sport-Tuesday-29-March

I don't know what it was but Cathy Devine had an argument against that at the recent OU GCRN event

I'm a bit doubtful about it myself. On a couple of grounds.

1. It is basically a fudge to have male and female, that relies on the assumption that there is no effective overlap in male and female performance. If there was a woman close enough to male performance, she would be potentially faced with the choice of competing in the open, or in the female category. Assuming she had to choose - or maybe she gets to compete in both. That potentially devalues the female sport, in that it becomes "for female athletes not good enough to compete in the open category". Even if that problem doesn't arise in practice, because NO female athletes are good enough at top level, it still is a conceptual problem. Maybe if pay is equalised (by fiat?), there would then be no huge incentive for women to compete in open instead of female, but whereever pay discrepancies remain...

2. If that open category permits testosterone-doped females, then that effectively closes it off to undoped females. You might be able to argue say "doped females versus males" is fair, if the gap is big enough. But if the gap ever closes, it would be problematic, and if any undoped female ever wanted to compete in the open, asking them to compete against doped females would be unfair.

I guess just basically prefer the "different, but equal" view of unranked, male and female categories, with no option to choose, to the "restricted lower class" view of female events.

This is kind of bikesheddy though - debating what colour of "males out of female sports" we want...

@Dinosauria

If Emily competes in the men's class I shall be cheering her on. Competing in the men's field will challenge society far more than beating women.

Exactly! This would be brave of Emily, and would show that this sport is progressive and inclusive. What a great message to send to young people and the wider world.

I think they could run into issues with an open category and it might be where men start making noise about their rights.

Much of it could be around language used - if your category is 'Open' and you, a man, win a race or set a record is it called a men's record or an open record? Men may well want to be able to name their records and medals as men's.

So let's say the category is called Open but men who win are still allowed to call their wins mens or males what happens if a male person who has a female or NB identity wins (possible if that person has had no hormone treatment)?

What is that person's win recorded as? Can't call it a female/women's record because that still impacts the protected female category. So we are back to calling and recording everything as an 'open' record and an 'open' medal.

Thing is I don't think for a second any sporting bodies and not many male athletes are going to stand for men's sport being erased in name. If fact it's probably one of the reasons why all this stuff has been shoved onto women in the first place to avoid it impacting men's sport in any way.

My understanding is that the reason UCI have said Emily can't compete is because they are still officially registered with them as a male athlete and therefore cannot compete in the women's category as you can't hold two registrations simultaneously. The male registration is due to lapse in about 6 weeks time so at that point Emily can/will register as a woman,

There is also a lot of suggestion that BC are hiding behind this as the female athletes threatened to boycott the event if Emily were to take part.

I agree that BC are fudging and hiding on the issue but at least this is shining a lot of sunlight on the issue and giving people like Sharron Davies more media space to talk about the fact that is not just fair to female athletes

There is also a lot of suggestion that BC are hiding behind this as the female athletes threatened to boycott the event if Emily were to take part.

I'm sure there are a few bricking themselves what with the Lia Thomas thing having hit just in the lead-up to it. I suspect there may be a few not-so-true-believers in BC desperately hoping for a way out where they can use the "well, it wasn't up to me" defence and not need to have the courage to say "no".

Haven’t RTFT but wouldn’t it be in a way beneficial for EB to be standing on a podium next to Laura Kenny - in terms of front page headlines and outrage and discussion?

This is the link to the minutes of the BC meeting where the policy was discussed and approved. (For some reason, the governance section of the BC site is not well- signposted).
www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/bc_files/corporate/boardminutes/WEBSITE_BCF_Board_-Minutes-8.12.21-_v1.pdf

@MamaSaidTheredBeDaysLikeThis

Haven’t RTFT but wouldn’t it be in a way beneficial for EB to be standing on a podium next to Laura Kenny - in terms of front page headlines and outrage and discussion?

In one sense yes but should Laura and the other women cyclists be subject to such loss of dignity?

These photos remain on the internet forever and even if this is all resolved satisfactorily in the end MRAs will forever republish them with such witty captions as 'remember that time you were beaten by a man lol'

I think on balance I'd rather this not happen to anymore women and girls.

Are Emily's qualifications good enough for a spot on the male team? If so then Emily could still compete this weekend. A male teammate could give up his spot no problem, right?

The Guardian article says that Emily was "on the Great Britain Academy programme as a male rider until being dropped in 2020" so perhaps isn't good enough?

"I think on balance I'd rather this not happen to anymore women and girls."

The thought of this being inflicted on Laura Kenny - Laura Kenny! - literally brings on tears of rage. The disrespect and what I can only see as misogyny from British Cycling is hard to comprehend.

@MamaSaidTheredBeDaysLikeThis

Haven’t RTFT but wouldn’t it be in a way beneficial for EB to be standing on a podium next to Laura Kenny - in terms of front page headlines and outrage and discussion?

Having taken a place of a female on the team, I suspect a tactic in the first race of deliberately not winning ("there's no problem you see!" say the blue ticked men) and from there take from female athletes a piece at a time

NecessaryScene and OvaHere - yes, if T-taking women can not enter then it feels SAMO that it is transmen (foot of the sex caste hierarchy in Sheila Jeffreys' terms) or some relevant groups of NB who are the only systemically excluded groups.

It's quite a defiant statement, isn't it? I feel like they're already working on how to find a loophole.

Still, it's good news for now.

Jeremy Vine is discussing this article on Radio 2 today if anyone fancies calling in.