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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Breaking news - Emily won't compete

382 replies

Doyoumind · 30/03/2022 19:29

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/60934099

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8
334bu · 04/04/2022 14:44

Sorry seems to be a bit if problem getting right bit of programme. It starts about 3.04.00

Youvebeengonesolong · 04/04/2022 15:05

That's a very interesting wider point by Helen Joyce that the origin of this has arisen because of misogyny: i.e. most men do not care about women's sport full stop. There is still a massive difference in the sponsorship, media attention, and recognition that both receive. And that is one of the reasons why many women are reluctant to speak out, because they will lose the little sponsorship they have.

And as HJ says, we need men to speak out too! Why won't they accept men who have transitioned from being men to "becoming" women in terms of dress and lifestyle (but remain male in their bodies) on to male teams? Why can't male cycle teams except a non-conformist man on their team? Why is it always women who have to budge up and make space?

kufc · 04/04/2022 15:22

How can we have such agreement across this thread and the rule makers do the complete opposite?

334bu · 04/04/2022 15:47

Because as Helen Joyce said in that interview men don't care about women's sport.

Signalbox · 04/04/2022 16:16

Why won't they accept men who have transitioned from being men to "becoming" women in terms of dress and lifestyle (but remain male in their bodies) on to male teams? Why can't male cycle teams except a non-conformist man on their team? Why is it always women who have to budge up and make space?

But has anyone seen any evidence of men not accepting TW on their teams? I haven’t. Emily Bridges was cycling in a men’s competition only a few weeks ago. Lia Thomas could have swam in the men’s ncaa competition if LT had been good enough but they weren’t. There was a TM in the women’s event so obviously this is possible. Often athletes have been competing at a lower level in the men’s competition. Are they being told that they are not allowed to continue competing with men or do they just fancy they have a better chance of doing well if they switch?

Apollo441 · 04/04/2022 16:21

There is no reason for transwomen not to compete with men. There is certainly no ban and the only examples I'm aware of, the men were welcoming and supportive. It's all about validation and having no respect for women.

334bu · 04/04/2022 16:32

Lia Thomas was invited and attended a lunch for all the University of Pennsylvania male swimmers. Lia also attended the women's lunch. Doesn't seem to be any discrimination from the men's team.

Feelingoktoday · 04/04/2022 17:03

@334bu

Because as Helen Joyce said in that interview men don't care about women's sport.
Exactly this. I don’t know any men who are seriously interested in women’s sport (apart from men with daughters).
ChateauMargaux · 04/04/2022 17:20

Repeating what others have said.. I have seen no evidence that men refuse to accept gender non conforming males in their sport. That said, I do know that there have been reports of widespread homophobia in sport.. outonthefields.com/media/

Beowulfa · 05/04/2022 09:47

Was listening to TalkSport last night (90% of coverage is football, and 90% of that is the men's English Premier League) and Matt Wilson of The Times was on talking about Emily Bridges. I was bracing myself, but I was really very pleasantly surprised:

-said he'd visited Derby at the weekend and actually spoken to people there about what they thought
-admitted to not understanding the Equality Act and now having been educated onto its specific exemption clauses
-said very clearly that men and women are physically different, specifying the female pelvis for childbirth and its impact on efficiency in sports like running and cycling
-reiterated it's not all about testosterone
-emphasised fairness
-concluded that sporting bodies need to sort themselves out

Both presenter and guest were very careful with the sensitivities, but the overall message was quite stridently that This Is Not Fair. A lot of ordinary blokes will have listened to this (interview was interrupted by the third goal at Selhurst Park). Very important moment I think.

Mytholmroyd · 05/04/2022 16:17

Both presenter and guest were very careful with the sensitivities, but the overall message was quite stridently that This Is Not Fair. A lot of ordinary blokes will have listened to this (interview was interrupted by the third goal at Selhurst Park). Very important moment I think

Yes very good. I don't know anyone who thinks it is fair and just. I haven't seen or heard anything about men's teams throwing gender diverse males out either - I think it's just about validation, attention and a very selfish desire to 'win' ie cheat, at all costs. I am so very disheartened to watch this complete disregard and disrespect for female athletes and women in general. I really never thought I would see such a reversal in my lifetime.

nepeta · 05/04/2022 16:27

Mytholmroyd

I am so very disheartened to watch this complete disregard and disrespect for female athletes and women in general. I really never thought I would see such a reversal in my lifetime.

It came on so suddenly at the end, but the work towards this has been done over many years. I could see the signs of capture organisation by organisation, and largely this was successful because hardly anyone really expected the demands to be what they actually are.

Most of us thought that 'women' would be a group consisting of a very large group of people who are women because they are biologically female and then a small group of trans women who identify as women but are not biologically female, but don't actually wish to enter single-sex spaces or erase all language about the female sex. I thought that they just wish to live as women and to be left alone.

Was I mistaken about that! Women who thought that they were kind and inclusive suddenly found themselves being kicked out of the group 'women' altogether.

The non-binary and trans men demands to redefine the word 'women' as having nothing to do with sex was also just accepted in the name of inclusiveness. And suddenly (it seems), 'women' really can be defined completely by what trans women want the word to be. The rest of us are bleeders or menstruators or individuals with a cervix or egg producers. Oh, and bigots for wanting to keep our name for our demographic group.

At least some men now are getting an inkling of how it feels to be erased, too. I am thinking of the pregnancy questions for all males in health care, but they are not seen as ejaculators yet. Give it time.

Truthlikeness · 05/04/2022 21:41

@Beowulfa

Was listening to TalkSport last night (90% of coverage is football, and 90% of that is the men's English Premier League) and Matt Wilson of The Times was on talking about Emily Bridges. I was bracing myself, but I was really very pleasantly surprised:

-said he'd visited Derby at the weekend and actually spoken to people there about what they thought
-admitted to not understanding the Equality Act and now having been educated onto its specific exemption clauses
-said very clearly that men and women are physically different, specifying the female pelvis for childbirth and its impact on efficiency in sports like running and cycling
-reiterated it's not all about testosterone
-emphasised fairness
-concluded that sporting bodies need to sort themselves out

Both presenter and guest were very careful with the sensitivities, but the overall message was quite stridently that This Is Not Fair. A lot of ordinary blokes will have listened to this (interview was interrupted by the third goal at Selhurst Park). Very important moment I think.

This is good to hear.

Everything in nature is a trade off. Females traded strength and speed for the ability to give birth. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/04/2022 11:26

An important development is that Sara Symington, the head of Great Britain's Olympic cycling programme has (along with over 70 other women) written to the UCI saying that they should 'rescind' the rule that allows trans riders to compete against women if they have reduced their testosterone to below five nanomoles per litre for 12 months because it is not 'fair:
Good to see senior women in sport are speaking out in greater numbers about this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10691303/GBs-cycling-chief-signs-letter-calling-STOP-transgender-riders-competing-womens-events.html

334bu · 06/04/2022 11:37

Thank you for the link. I was pleased to see the stress on female rights by them asking British Cycling to ban male cyclists from competing with women until such time that it can be proven unequivocally that there is no advantage.

Signalbox · 06/04/2022 13:53

[quote MrsOvertonsWindow]An important development is that Sara Symington, the head of Great Britain's Olympic cycling programme has (along with over 70 other women) written to the UCI saying that they should 'rescind' the rule that allows trans riders to compete against women if they have reduced their testosterone to below five nanomoles per litre for 12 months because it is not 'fair:
Good to see senior women in sport are speaking out in greater numbers about this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10691303/GBs-cycling-chief-signs-letter-calling-STOP-transgender-riders-competing-womens-events.html[/quote]
Wow. Surely they can’t continue to ignore this level of opposition from women. There is clearly some serious organisation and resistance going on behind the scenes.

PermanentTemporary · 06/04/2022 14:07

OK that is wonderful. Something new.

AtrociousCircumstance · 06/04/2022 14:59

Good news. Very good news. A push back against the furious misogyny that fuels trans activism.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/04/2022 15:05

It is good isn't it? It's getting to a critical mass where enough women and men are speaking out to the extent that they can't bully everyone. I've also noticed that some sporting bodies stating that of course women are free to speak (despite their previous threatening comments) so maybe that's shifting as well.

JulesJules · 06/04/2022 15:19

twitter.com/UnionFeminine/status/1511449494310711297?t=YH1Q8KbDc9bPWdjL6v2A4g&s=19
Is it this letter? Anyone can add their signature to it.

334bu · 08/04/2022 11:27

mobile.twitter.com/seaningle/status/1512370811402960898?cxt=HHwWhIC-5a7Pgv0pAAAA

Seems as if British Cycling might be actually going to look at unfairness of their decisions.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 08/04/2022 11:29

If only they’d actually thought it all through in the first place 🤦🏻‍♀️

Plasmodesmata · 08/04/2022 11:38

It's almost like the policies were written in the abstract, without thinking of what would actually happen if someone followed the rules in the policy.
Maybe they were happy for someone to be "included" who wasn't actually going to win? Makes no sense.

CaveMum · 08/04/2022 11:40

The letter to UCI is now up to 652 signatures from cyclists and other sports people

twitter.com/unionfeminine/status/1512323337245974530?s=21&t=HNSYl7GOjkZg3iPjX-03fg

LK1972 · 08/04/2022 11:43

I guess the threat of boycott is the way to achieve change, good on British women cyclists! The idea of Emily dominating Female events for years is outrageous and it can not be allowed to happen. Let's hope they involve right stakeholders for their review, and stay well clear of Stonewall Smile

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