Hypothetical perfect sex change

[pop91]

Hypothetical:

Say there was a perfect sex change in the future where every single cell could be recoded as male for a trans man, would you then accept transmen as men? or would they need to be born male even if their entire physicality and biology were changed?

(To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes)

Either way, I wasn't talking about trans people. I was assuming this procedure was for everyone and there was no 'gatekeeping'.

OK, I was prepared to humour this person, but actually they're an inconsiderate, ignorant fool

@pop91

Hypothetical:

Say there was a perfect sex change in the future where every single cell could be recoded as male for a trans man, would you then accept transmen as men? or would they need to be born male even if their entire physicality and biology were changed?

(To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes)

Yes it would be a man. But it would not be the same person as before the change.

This is like the question people sometimes ask, "What if you woke up tomorrow in a man's body? How would you feel?"

Such questions and yours, OP presuppose that there is something that makes you who you are independently of all changes to your body. Usually this is thought of as a soul of some sort.

We owe this idea of an independently existing soul, more or less, to Descartes. It is intellectually enticing, but quite wrong.

Of course some bodily changes ageing in certain ways, even amputations, etc. will still leave me the same person. But some aspects of my physical body are necessary for me to be me, amongst which, my sex.

Another way of saying this, perhaps, would be to point out that changing sex is not just a scientific impossibility: it is a conceptual , or, if you like, metaphysical impossibility that a human being changes sex.

So, whoever wakes up tomorrow with a penis and all the trimmings, it will not be me. Why? --Because I am a woman.

Likewise, OP, with your thought experiment. The person after the change would not be the same person as the one before the change. Why? --Because they have different sexes, and being a certain sex is an essential component of who one is.

Well, I’m glad I clicked on this thread @Kanaloa as I too love a crap film 🤣

@DickKerrLadiesaurus

you make it sound like being female isn't what you want? like you want to escape being female?

Personally, I would like to not escape being female, but to escape the gender role (box) that society enforces on me because I am female.

But where my opinion differs from gender ideology is that I don't think the solution is to continue to enforce the boxes but let people change their box. I say get rid of the boxes.

Question OP - do you feel more that you 'identify as a man' or that you 'don't identify as a woman'? I ask this because I've asked it to TW in the past and I would find it interesting to hear your perspective as a TM.

In a world, without gender roles, you are still a woman and I believe I would still be a man to myself.

I suppose we are moving to a world with fewer gender roles so we will see who is right.

Question OP - do you feel more that you 'identify as a man' or that you 'don't identify as a woman'? I ask this because I've asked it to TW in the past and I would find it interesting to hear your perspective as a TM

both if you held a gun to my head then 'identify as a man'

are there not already biological cis men who act in ways far closer to that expected of women? Chiefly thinking of effeminate gay men but also just normal men who behave in very traditionally feminine ways

I don’t think effeminate gay men behave like women at all.

And again with that word “normal”.

That’s twice I’ve seen that word used on here today. It’s not usually used by the regular posters here.

I haven't read the Gate To Women's Country for years. I find Sherri Tepper a bit radical for middle aged me, but I think I'll dust it off. And take another run at The Left Hand of Drakness.

Ursula Le Guin understood what being a woman means. I bloody love The Other Wind.

[quote BernardBlackMissesLangCleg]I mean supposedly females would be in demand.

females are already in demand you fool. it does not go well for us

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chibok_schoolgirls_kidnapping[/quote]
It was an attempt at humour :\ not a serious suggestion.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

OK, I was prepared to humour this person, but actually they're an inconsiderate, ignorant fool

I apologise if my humour came across as inconsiderate and/or ignorant.

It wasn't my intention.

I actually think this thread is fascinating, not for the thought experiment but for the OP's disbelief that other people aren't as invested in their sexed bodies as he is - e.g. the assumption that anyone who undertook this imaginary procedure for convenience would have dysphoria. I think it's a real difference and barrier to discussion between those who feel like this and those that don't, though I don't think it divides neatly down lines of trans vs GC.

@DickKerrLadiesaurus

Either way, I wasn't talking about trans people. I was assuming this procedure was for everyone and there was no 'gatekeeping'.

nope, I meant for trans people but interesting to hear people say most women would become men just for the benefits.

@Deliriumoftheendless

are there not already biological cis men who act in ways far closer to that expected of women? Chiefly thinking of effeminate gay men but also just normal men who behave in very traditionally feminine ways

I don’t think effeminate gay men behave like women at all.

And again with that word “normal”.

That’s twice I’ve seen that word used on here today. It’s not usually used by the regular posters here.

then someone what are womanly behaviours that trans men do that cis men don't?

In a world, without gender roles, you are still a woman and I believe I would still be a man to myself.

I thought the words 'woman' and 'man' are gender terms - so they wouldn't exist in a world without gender roles. We're just left with male and female.

Question OP - do you feel more that you 'identify as a man' or that you 'don't identify as a woman'? I ask this because I've asked it to TW in the past and I would find it interesting to hear your perspective as a TM

both if you held a gun to my head then 'identify as a man'

That's an interesting answer.

Every TW I've asked that question to (that has been polite enough to answer) have said that their main feeling is that they 'don't identify as a man'. Some feel that continues into '...therefore I identify as a woman' but others understand that that isn't the logical conclusion.

Thanks for answering, I find it interesting to hear both male and female perspectives on dysphoria.

What are the most important issues facing us today?

Should climate change or world war threaten us all, which sex do you think will most be affected?

Why do you think childbirth injuries are often ignored?

Why do more black women die in childbirth in the UK than white women?

How should we tackle FGM?

What are the roots of male violence and how can we address them?

@HardbackWriter

I actually think this thread is fascinating, not for the thought experiment but for the OP's disbelief that other people aren't as invested in their sexed bodies as he is - e.g. the assumption that anyone who undertook this imaginary procedure for convenience would have dysphoria. I think it's a real difference and barrier to discussion between those who feel like this and those that don't, though I don't think it divides neatly down lines of trans vs GC.

It is interesting to hear people say they wouldn't experience dysphoria changing sex.

I suppose my experience with gender dysphoria doesn't make it capable for me to fathom how someone could have a mismatch between their brain and body and not suffer for it?

I'm loving this thought experiment, it's really interesting!
So, if someone could completely change biological sex down to every cell in their body, have they changed sex. Well, yes, as sex is biological.
What worries me is that if I could have changed sex as a child I'd have jumped at the chance. No doubt about it. I hated being a girl (in the 70s), being made to wear dresses, not being 'allowed' to climb trees and play rough games. I was a full on Tom boy.
But, I'm actually an autistic radical feminist. I hated being a girl because of societies expectations of my gender. I still hate having boobs (they get in the way), periods, menopause Ffs!, sexism, imbalance on relationships etc. I hate the female experience. I do not have a gender identity, I don't identify with societies expectations, I'm me, not something to fit in a box.
Like a pp said, I believe instead of changing your gender, we should get rid of the boxes we socialise the genders to fit into.

So back to the thought experiment, if a white person could change your skin colour similarly, would you then be black? Well, yes, biologically but you'd have grown up with white privilege so socially no? Maybe? I dunno, it's interesting.

Well, you’d have to work out what are womanly behaviours and manly behaviours first.

Then see which are down to biology and which are down to socialisation.

@DickKerrLadiesaurus

In a world, without gender roles, you are still a woman and I believe I would still be a man to myself.

I thought the words 'woman' and 'man' are gender terms - so they wouldn't exist in a world without gender roles. We're just left with male and female.

Question OP - do you feel more that you 'identify as a man' or that you 'don't identify as a woman'? I ask this because I've asked it to TW in the past and I would find it interesting to hear your perspective as a TM

both if you held a gun to my head then 'identify as a man'

That's an interesting answer.

Every TW I've asked that question to (that has been polite enough to answer) have said that their main feeling is that they 'don't identify as a man'. Some feel that continues into '...therefore I identify as a woman' but others understand that that isn't the logical conclusion.

Thanks for answering, I find it interesting to hear both male and female perspectives on dysphoria.

Are gender roles the same as Man, Woman? and not just what's associated with those labels?

Does that mean Gender Criticals are saying they do partake in gender roles willingly? Should you then define yourselves as females and not women?

It is interesting to hear people say they wouldn't experience dysphoria changing sex.
I don't think anyone has said that?

It's your female body that makes you female. Not any hobbies or affectations.

And which are just variations in personality and interests.

Am I like Nick Rhodes because we both like make up or like Charlie Dimmock because we both like digging ponds and don’t wear a bra?

Should you then define yourselves as females and not women?

Nope. Because woman is simply the noun for an adult human female. Like bitch is a female dog and doe is a female deer.

I don’t need to define myself.

I am a woman.

@DomesticatedZombie

What are the most important issues facing us today?

Should climate change or world war threaten us all, which sex do you think will most be affected?

Why do you think childbirth injuries are often ignored?

Why do more black women die in childbirth in the UK than white women?

How should we tackle FGM?

What are the roots of male violence and how can we address them?

Sort them then, I'm not part of your gender and you clearly don't care for my issues so why should I for yours?

@MyLittlePhonyPony

It is interesting to hear people say they wouldn't experience dysphoria changing sex. I don't think anyone has said that?

It's your female body that makes you female. Not any hobbies or affectations.

I don't think anyone has said that?

fairly sure they did

Why should we define ourselves based on what you or anyone else says... women has been used to describe adult human females for centuries. If sex does not equal gender then those who identify as something else need a new word... woman is already taken.