Hypothetical perfect sex change

[pop91]

Hypothetical:

Say there was a perfect sex change in the future where every single cell could be recoded as male for a trans man, would you then accept transmen as men? or would they need to be born male even if their entire physicality and biology were changed?

(To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes)

@Nellodee

Then there would be another group of people who choose to have their personalities uploaded to the internet, or into robots. These new creatures, who would call themselves The Ascended, would wage war to wipe out humanity. They would be successful , end climate change in the process and the world would live happily ever after without humans of either sex.

would that be so bad?

@Nellodee

I played your game. Do I win a cookie?

I had to get up for times last night due to mental issues. Would I choose to be stronger, taller, have a faster metabolism and be period free? Of course I would. I’m also sexually attracted to men, of whom there’d be loads, which would be great. I genuinely think you’d have to traffic women in for men’s sexual needs - more than we do already - and that we would end up with a horrendous sci-fi dystopia.
In fact, in that dystopia, I bet we get cries of transwomen are not women, as those changing sex to be women mostly wanted only the boobs and clothes, rather than the subjugation and lower social status.

@MuggleMadness

It's Sunday morning, when I woke up my iPhone told me it was 6:30, but I knew it was really 5:30. I wish it had told me it was1972, not 2022.

It was a better/happier time.

I mean I'd have been chased and beaten or killed by racist gangs and if not then killed myself under the oppressive tory governments forcing me to 'behave' but yh it might be nice for you to wake up in 1972

Team Ascended here. But however much fun this little thought experiment may have been, it has absolutely no bearing on anything in the real world, and as a thread would be better placed on a creative writing forum, rather than a feminism board.

I got up due to menstrual issues, not mental issues!

Interesting question and I see what you're getting at. Thank you.

So reading your question I have come to think that I believe sex and gender interact with each other through life. I dont think theyre the same thing but I have thought for some time that in daily life as opposed to theory, it is quite difficult to separate them.

So there's no doubt that I would believe your hypothetical sex changed person to be a man, both in meeting them and in theory. I would also expect to be surprised by gendered behaviour that I would not normally expect from a man, because that person grew up female. The transmen I know ( i only know 3 and they are all very young) do still have a lot of behaviours I associate with women and I'd say that is because they grew up with a particular gender.

Not sure where that puts me. But as I say, interesting question.

Oh, if we're getting on, I should ruin it by saying if you think social contagion plays no role in the rise in children wishing to transition, I think you're wilfully blind. But I'd also agree that a lot of the 'social contagion' bunch are essentially talking about it a lot to annoy their parents and dot do much but flip pronouns.

@Nellodee

I had to get up for times last night due to mental issues. Would I choose to be stronger, taller, have a faster metabolism and be period free? Of course I would. I’m also sexually attracted to men, of whom there’d be loads, which would be great. I genuinely think you’d have to traffic women in for men’s sexual needs - more than we do already - and that we would end up with a horrendous sci-fi dystopia. In fact, in that dystopia, I bet we get cries of transwomen are not women, as those changing sex to be women mostly wanted only the boobs and clothes, rather than the subjugation and lower social status.

I had to get up for times last night due to mental issues

sorry to hear that.
Hope you're able to get through it :)

Would I choose to be stronger, taller, have a faster metabolism and be period free? Of course I would

There's nothing you like about being a woman?

I didn't transition to be taller or stronger or stop periods.

we would end up with a horrendous sci-fi dystopia

I dunno a lot of this depends on men being innately sexual monsters but I think that social more than biological.

If culture changed so would men.

@Nellodee

Team Ascended here. But however much fun this little thought experiment may have been, it has absolutely no bearing on anything in the real world, and as a thread would be better placed on a creative writing forum, rather than a feminism board.

I dunno it gives insights to some GCs believing even such a procedure wouldn't actually allow for what trans people are asking for.

I like this game. Can the twitter community vote on whether I can choose to opt out of, menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, the menopause, low pay and being patronised too?

And if everywoman could, would you like us to join - no doubt overcrowded - men’s spaces.

If a hypothetical person already felt they knew all the opinions of the people they were talking too, why would that hypothetical person bother asking any questions? Would it not be better for that hypothetical person to perhaps listen to what other people are saying instead of telling them that they already know what they believe?

Especially as I think that hypothetical person might look a little silly if they then show that actually, they have no fucking clue what the people they are talking to believe by making ridiculous statements about them believing the opposite to what they actually do.

OP, you seem confused as to what our views on gender are - perhaps we have different definitions of what gender is. Perhaps you could tell us what you mean by gender. If we know your definition then perhaps we could help you with your confusion as to what we believe.

Too much perhapsing.

@PermanentTemporary

Interesting question and I see what you're getting at. Thank you.

So reading your question I have come to think that I believe sex and gender interact with each other through life. I dont think theyre the same thing but I have thought for some time that in daily life as opposed to theory, it is quite difficult to separate them.

So there's no doubt that I would believe your hypothetical sex changed person to be a man, both in meeting them and in theory. I would also expect to be surprised by gendered behaviour that I would not normally expect from a man, because that person grew up female. The transmen I know ( i only know 3 and they are all very young) do still have a lot of behaviours I associate with women and I'd say that is because they grew up with a particular gender.

Not sure where that puts me. But as I say, interesting question.

Oh, if we're getting on, I should ruin it by saying if you think social contagion plays no role in the rise in children wishing to transition, I think you're wilfully blind. But I'd also agree that a lot of the 'social contagion' bunch are essentially talking about it a lot to annoy their parents and dot do much but flip pronouns.

I would also expect to be surprised by gendered behaviour that I would not normally expect from a man because that person grew up female

are there not already biological cis men who act in ways far closer to that expected of women? Chiefly thinking of effeminate gay men but also just normal men who behave in very traditionally feminine ways?

The transmen I know ( i only know 3 and they are all very young) do still have a lot of behaviours I associate with women and I'd say that is because they grew up with a particular gender

That's interesting as almost the trans men I know bar 1 (whos a gay bottom) have been criticised by our friend group for 'toxic masculinity' and almost seem to try to out-men at being men, especially in respect to working out.

What behaviours do you mean specifically do you mean?

the 'social contagion' bunch are essentially talking about it a lot to annoy their parents and dot do much but flip pronouns

To be fair this was used against gay/lesbian but bisexual people especially as just being 'different' or 'annoying their parents' but that obviously wasn't true and if you truly believe it's just changing the pronouns for a little bit then what's the actual damage in that considering even JK Rowling did it for a bit

Yes even if this “perfect procedure” existed, it still wouldn’t change a person’s history, change other people’s right to remember and care about that history, or justify compelled speech and forced acceptance. So I would still place caveats on what these transformed people could/should be able to do.

@Cuck00soup

I like this game. Can the twitter community vote on whether I can choose to opt out of, menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, the menopause, low pay and being patronised too?

And if everywoman could, would you like us to join - no doubt overcrowded - men’s spaces.

Other than the low pay and being patronised would you really want to opt-out of the rest?

Aren't there actually many women who enjoy pregnancy and childbirth (not all or even most but at least some)

I just refuse to believe women hate being female THAT much and none of these reasons played into why I transitioned.

sciencing.com/happens-inside-chrysalis-butterfly-8148799.html

Would the process look a little like this? I always thought butterflies just grew longer legs and wings or something. No apparently they dissolve their own body. Happy nightmares people!

Also, would you be able to go back and forward? Hypothetically I think most people would choose to make the most of a male physique in early puberty and adulthood, to make the most of sport, travelling, career climbing, safety etc.

Then if they wanted children I'd imagine they'd switch (although there may be some arguing with the partner there about who should carry and push a large baby out of their vagina.) Bit after children depending on what diseases your family are most prone to you would probably switch to whichever gave you the most chance of living long and pain free.

A similar question I always wondered is would our ideas of beauty change if you could change your appearance at will?

@GoldenGorilla

Yes even if this “perfect procedure” existed, it still wouldn’t change a person’s history, change other people’s right to remember and care about that history, or justify compelled speech and forced acceptance. So I would still place caveats on what these transformed people could/should be able to do.

That's certainly interesting to hear. Thanks :)

@MyLittlePhonyPony

sciencing.com/happens-inside-chrysalis-butterfly-8148799.html

Would the process look a little like this? I always thought butterflies just grew longer legs and wings or something. No apparently they dissolve their own body. Happy nightmares people!

Also, would you be able to go back and forward? Hypothetically I think most people would choose to make the most of a male physique in early puberty and adulthood, to make the most of sport, travelling, career climbing, safety etc.

Then if they wanted children I'd imagine they'd switch (although there may be some arguing with the partner there about who should carry and push a large baby out of their vagina.) Bit after children depending on what diseases your family are most prone to you would probably switch to whichever gave you the most chance of living long and pain free.

A similar question I always wondered is would our ideas of beauty change if you could change your appearance at will?

hmmmm

I don't suppose it would be a pretty transformation to look at though I don't suppose that's the point.

Would you choose to switch around like that?
because I don't think I would switch back once I got 'fully transitioned.'

Ohh and also would you keep everything else?

So would a tubby, mediocre man who was not a great athlete become a woman who was tubby and non athletic, or would they emerge from the cocoon having retained some sort of advantage?

The bit about other peoples right to remember is interesting. Let's say we perfect this perfect sex change, would we allow violent criminals to perfectly transition? Conversely, how would stop the ability to perfectly transition being used to further criminal activities?

A few thoughts...

A society where people could change their sex down to their DNA would be radically different from our own. I can see it playing out two ways...

Either the society, like our own, would have one sex which has a real socialisation, career progression, and financial advantage, so everyone would want to choose to be that sex. This would create similar social issues to those we currently have in societies where there is sex-selection abortion, but on a much grander scale. To address this, there would have to be limits on who could change sex, and how. And maybe markers to say 'this one's not a real man' to keep uppity women out of male spaces.

Or, where the burdens of childrearing can fall equally on anyone, then sex-based power differentials could melt away. I can only see that happening if there's an element of choicelessness on the sex change.

If you want to see a thought-experiment played out on the latter, then I would highly recommend Ursula Le Guin's 'The Left Hand of Darkness'. It's one of my very favourite books, and one of its themes is just that.

In either event, it would be a radically different society from our own. So what I, as an individual socialised in a society where I can't change my sex, no matter how much I would want to, would think of individuals who can change their sex at will really isn't the point. The point is how that society would manage when sex is a fluid concept.

I agree it would be fascinating. It would allow us to unpick what is socialisation, what is male-reinforced power structures, and what is the inevitable consequences of a binary sexual biology. And whether there really is a thing called gender identity that exists and persists independent of biological sex. But what I think of it, as a creature who cannot escape my female biology, is irrelevant.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

Ohh and also would you keep everything else?

So would a tubby, mediocre man who was not a great athlete become a woman who was tubby and non athletic, or would they emerge from the cocoon having retained some sort of advantage?

So would a tubby, mediocre man who was not a great athlete become a woman who was tubby and non athletic

Yes, it's doesn't make you any taller or shorter either.

@ThreeB

The bit about other peoples right to remember is interesting. Let's say we perfect this perfect sex change, would we allow violent criminals to perfectly transition? Conversely, how would stop the ability to perfectly transition being used to further criminal activities?

would we allow violent criminals to perfectly transition?

In prison no, after prison yes.

Conversely, how would stop the ability to perfectly transition being used to further criminal activities?

I don't suppose it would an easy procedure, maybe taking many months.