Hypothetical perfect sex change

[pop91]

Hypothetical:

Say there was a perfect sex change in the future where every single cell could be recoded as male for a trans man, would you then accept transmen as men? or would they need to be born male even if their entire physicality and biology were changed?

(To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes)

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Should you then define yourselves as females and not women?

Nope. Because woman is simply the noun for an adult human female. Like bitch is a female dog and doe is a female deer.

but i thought it was a gender role?

Are gender roles the same as Man, Woman? and not just what's associated with those labels?

I was using your language, although TBF it may have been on your other thread that you said you see the words man and woman as being related to gender, not sex. I'm just trying to clarify for my own understanding.

Does that mean Gender Criticals are saying they do partake in gender roles willingly?

Should you then define yourselves as females and not women?

A woman is an adult human female.

I would not drink 'milk' from a bull.

Perhaps I missed it. Maybe you can quote the relevant poster's words?

but i thought it was a gender role?

That's what you think it is.

@ChateauMargaux

Why should we define ourselves based on what you or anyone else says... women has been used to describe adult human females for centuries. If sex does not equal gender then those who identify as something else need a new word... woman is already taken.

cool but someone just said women is a gender role and since GCs oppose gender roles?

@DickKerrLadiesaurus

Are gender roles the same as Man, Woman? and not just what's associated with those labels?

I was using your language, although TBF it may have been on your other thread that you said you see the words man and woman as being related to gender, not sex. I'm just trying to clarify for my own understanding.

Does that mean Gender Criticals are saying they do partake in gender roles willingly?

Should you then define yourselves as females and not women?

A woman is an adult human female.

I would not drink 'milk' from a bull.

but you said woman is a gender role? now it's not?

@DickKerrLadiesaurus

but i thought it was a gender role?

That's what you think it is.

NO i think it's an Identity NOT a role

In this thought experiment, can parents choose to transition their babies / children?

but i thought it was a gender role?

It's not exclusively a gender role. It's exclusively related to being an adult human female person.

It begs the question. Of course, if you could perform a perfect sex change, the person's sex would have changed.

Looking through I can't find any reference to a poster saying gender dysphoria wouldn't occur.

Have you misread my own post? The flavour of which was I said that pretty much any drastic Freaky Friday body swap would result in a similar feeling to dysphoria, whether changing to be beautiful, look like a celeb whatever?

Or others who have said at present they don't like certain aspects of being female, such as periods, but they are not dysphoric?

Or can you post the post you are referring to please?

I don't understand what woman as an identity means.

But I think I can help you with understanding what gender critical means.

From the World Health Organisation:

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other.

People who are gender critical are critical of gender. Fuck the boxes.

I'm not part of your gender and you clearly don't care for my issues so why should I for yours?

do you seriously believe that because that if you'd been born in Somalia you would not have been subjected to FGM because "My brain tells me that I was meant to have a flat chest and dick" ?

fool twice over now

Women's problems are YOUR problems OP - wake up

Sort them then, I'm not part of your gender and you clearly don't care for my issues so why should I for yours?

Well, good to see you're offering to take part in a fully realised and healthy adult reciprocal relationship, OP.

I'm going to suggest therapy to address your issues. And if you're not willing to even consider participating in anything that doesn't pertain to your absurd self-indulgent fantasies, I think I'm done here.

It's like saying, 'If I could turn an orange into a kiwi fruit, would you recognise it as a kiwi fruit?'

I would.

I would also expect other forms of sorcery to follow.

Hey, pop91. There are lots of kinds of “identity”, aren’t there. Would you explain to me a bit how you think, say, national identity works? And how “national identity” compares to “the place where you were born”?

Are people born in the U.K. born naturally polite and reserved? Are Americans naturally smiley?

If I went and learned all the customs and language of Peru and became a citizen there, would this change where I was born?

Is “national identity” a natural thing? Does it exist in my soul somewhere? Or is it just a collection of behaviours and narratives? Is there a difference between a “genuine” national identity and an exaggerated fantasised jingoistic version of wartime and Brexit? Or are they both just different made up narratives? Do they have any basis in anything material apart from the culture around me?

Would you agree that national identities create damaging fictions and that we should break free of them and live as free world citizens; or do you like your national identity and zealously want to protect it? Do you believe fully that you are innately of a particular nationality in your soul?

Is there anything essential about gender identity that makes it different from national identity…?

I apologise if my humour came across as inconsiderate and/or ignorant.

watching the OP do female socialisation all over the thread is interesting in a schadenfreude kind of way

(Trigger warning: assault, rape)

I do feel weird that so many women here don't, particularly like being female.

Hi OP. Not an unreasonable observation. I’ve been here a few years and noticed that. I think there is a higher proportion of women that have been harmed, abused or raped by men on this forum. (No I’m not saying their views are less valid). Most of my (non trans) female friends love being women and would not want to be men despite the crap bits like periods and occasionally appalling maternity care. Some are highly paid, some not.

1. Currently you believe sex and gender are different and sex can’t be changed. Your hypothetical hasn’t arrived yet so doesn’t that give us a problem now for spaces like toilets, changing rooms, sports and prisons? Because those spaces are separated by sex not gender aren’t they?

1. There are a lot of male sex offenders in prisons, most of whom have committed crimes against women and girls. If they could undergo perfect physical sex changes after discharge, doesn’t that give us a problem if they could mix more freely in female spaces where women and girls are more vulnerable? What is the solution there?

@pop91 this sentence from you fascinates me

"nope, I meant for trans people but interesting to hear people say most women would become men just for the benefits."

JUST for the benefits

Women are still do not have equity with men even in the UK which is supposed to be a modern and progressive society.

Pay disparity and low representation in senior roles
Increased poverty
74% of women in prison in the last stats issued in 2019 were there for failure to pay TV license.
Men can have children and it's fine to never pay or care for them leaving women in poverty

Look more globally and you have infant girls having their genitalia removed or sewn shut
Foetuses being aborted because a scan shows they don't have a penis
Newborns being left to die, actively murdered or abandoned because they were born with a vulva and vagina
Girls being trafficked and sold for sex or slavery

There is no JUST about the benefits of being male.

Yes exactly Bernard - I was in a hobby group online where it was all women apart from one young transman, and there was literally no trace of male socialisation at all. Every way that “he” interacted socially - language, style, outlook, opinions, likes and dislikes - was indistinguishable from the young female participants. It was clear that there was not in fact much actual knowledge of or interest in actual men, male culture, stereotypically male socialisation, interests or behaviour - more like a kind of fantasy about maleness going on (“boyish” t-shirts, flat chest etc.), that was to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the young women.

I felt sorry for them, since they so very clearly had very little experience of men and tbh like most middle aged women, I have experienced more than enough of men and male socialisation and quite frankly an baffled at the fact that these young transitioning girls are seeking to become something that they so clearly have such little knowledge of.

If this technology existed, I would bank a load of sperm from the intellectually and physically superior men from the various races, then turn all men into women.

Sort them then, I'm not part of your gender and you clearly don't care for my issues so why should I for yours?
Wrong again on all counts OP.
These are all issues that affect the female sex, regardless of an individual’s beliefs around gender in general, or their own identity. They are sex based issues. That is what gender critical feminists recognise.

Also, most fellow GC feminists I’ve ever met and had in-depth discussions with, have cared deeply for what is happening to young females identifying as non-binary and trans men. Really deeply. Because we recognise a lot of ourselves in what you go through.

If my aunt had bollocks, she'd be my uncle. I hope this helps.

What I don't like is my femaleness being defined for me, being oppressed for being female, the constraints that are placed upon me for being female but neither do I believe I should hide the fact that I a. female, that I should have surgery or take hormones to change the outward appearance of my femaleness, or that I should perform our femaleness to a set of stereotypes defined by others. I also do not believe that I feel the same as other females.. I feel like me... and I am female because of my biology.

Look more globally and you have infant girls having their genitalia removed or sewn shut
Foetuses being aborted because a scan shows they don't have a penis
Newborns being left to die, actively murdered or abandoned because they were born with a vulva and vagina
Girls being trafficked and sold for sex or slavery

Half do you think a lot of women in this country are as aware of these things? There may be a higher awareness on this forum because it’s a feminist forum. But I don’t think that makes most women I know prefer to be men or not glad to be female.