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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hypothetical perfect sex change

238 replies

pop91 · 27/03/2022 03:06

Hypothetical:

Say there was a perfect sex change in the future where every single cell could be recoded as male for a trans man, would you then accept transmen as men? or would they need to be born male even if their entire physicality and biology were changed?

(To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes)

OP posts:
Cwenthryth · 27/03/2022 05:14

No, you said we don’t believe gender is real.

So you define gender as gender identity? That may be where we disagree.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/03/2022 05:20

You implied we thought sex = gender.

Nah, no. There are two sexes in mammals (count 'em, two), whereas there are well over 50 different gender identities.

So obviously not the same thing. The confusing part is how trans activists think that almost all of those genders should be entitled to use the areas reserved for persons of the female sex.

OldCrone · 27/03/2022 05:29

So far you've told us:

I believe Sex and Gender are different and you do not.

You don't believe gender is real and that Man, Women can only be determined by sex

Which is it? Do you believe that we all think gender and sex is the same or that we don't think gender is real?

Why have you come here to tell us what we think? Wouldn't it be more useful to tell us what you think and we'll tell you what we think? Since these two contradictory statements show that you don't have a clue about what people on here think.

What do you think 'gender' is and is it the same as 'gender identity'?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/03/2022 05:33

Instead of arguing with people on the internet by telling them what they think, read this discussion between two people

letter.wiki/conversation/1232

Lowhum · 27/03/2022 05:40

What about catgender? Maybe in the future humans could design tech to allow these folk to grow tails. Or ears, the ears could be cute!

PearPickingPorky · 27/03/2022 05:44

@pop91

Hypothetical:

Say there was a perfect sex change in the future where every single cell could be recoded as male for a trans man, would you then accept transmen as men? or would they need to be born male even if their entire physicality and biology were changed?

(To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes)

Would this magical sex change also undo all the prior female socialisation? Rewrite that person's entire life experiences to what they would have been if they were the opposite sex?
DERFDogmaExlusionary · 27/03/2022 06:38

there seem to be lots of threads overnight with a whiff of students visiting the 'radicalised' with fake posts to write their gender studies thesis

TheGreatATuin · 27/03/2022 06:52

As I believe Sex and Gender are different and you do not.
If you'd read the many different discussions on this subject here, you'd know that the prevailing opinion on this board is that sex and gender are very much different and, in fact, that underpins a lot of the arguments.
I've been a regular on the Mumsnet Feminism boards for over a decade and I don't think I've ever seen someone say that.
I'm not sure where you get your information about MN from, but you are misinformed.

undermilkjug · 27/03/2022 06:56

If there is ever the ability to rewrite someone's entire chromosomal code to get them to change sex, it had better deal with some of those unfair illnesses which only attach to certain individuals who happen to be assigned to a particular sex at birth (how do they know?!)

It could be a miraculous cure for Duchennes.

TheGreatATuin · 27/03/2022 07:00

Would this magical sex change also undo all the prior female socialisation?
I'd also like to know if this would be the case in this hypothetical situation.

LittleWhingingWoman · 27/03/2022 07:29

"To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes."

Magic gender and sex change fantasies are what got us to this bullshit mess in the first place.

But whilst you are here I want to ask YOU some questions. These are non magical questions that affect people in the real world.

Do you believe the upsurge in autistic girls identifying as non binary or trans has anything to do with social influence? Many of these girls who are saying they are trans also have mental health issues going on like self harm or anorexia. What safeguarding can there be so these girls aren't getting healthy breast tissue amputated? To repeat - how can we ensure the safety of children with special needs to make sure that they aren't being coerced into believing they can magically change sex?

A woman was raped in an NHS hospital by a transwoman. She was told no rape happened. The rape was caught on CCTV. The NHS staff denied a man was on the ward. As if by magic, the man with a penis who raped the woman was made into a figment of her imagination. What do you think this means for womens safety in hospitals? Are the NHS to be trusted? Apparently this isn't the only case!

Happy to keep asking you questions so don't leave too quickly will you?

pop91 · 27/03/2022 07:31

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]Instead of arguing with people on the internet by telling them what they think, read this discussion between two people

letter.wiki/conversation/1232[/quote]
If you're GC?

Isn't this a pretty bad example?

The GC man refused to delve into his own statistics and kept changing the topic as soon as the sceptic guy refuted it in some way.

Idk I feel like I could come up with better GC arguments than he was.

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Fairislefandango · 27/03/2022 07:42

Confused You seem to be simultaneously claiming that we don't believe gender exists, and that we believe there's no difference between gender and sex. Which is it?

For the record, gender critical people generally think that gender is not some kind of inner identity or inherent sense of self, but merely a set of outdated, regressive sex-based stereotypes about how men and women should dress and behave and the roles they should occupy in society. So yes, that's very different from sex, which is immutable.

Your hypothetical example is basically saying 'If a human being could literally change sex, would they have changed sex?'. Well... yes, obviously. That's like saying 'If a pen were transformed into a cushion, would it be a cushion'. The answer is inherent in the framing of the question.

However, it's totally irrelevant because it won't ever be real. Plus there would probably still be concerns. Even a total magical sex transformation wouldn't automatically get rid of the learned behaviours, motivations and expectations that a person might have as a result of living for decades in their original sex, due to how society treats and regards people of that sex.

GoldenGorilla · 27/03/2022 07:45

Ok, I’ll bite.

If a medical procedure could take a woman, change every cell, bone structure, organ size, musculature, dissolve some organs, grow other organs, so that physically and biologically that woman became indistinguishable from a man?

Then that person would biologically be a man.

However they still would not have been raised as a boy, socialised as a boy, treated as a boy/young man by the wider world, had the experiences of a boy who enters puberty, etc etc.

They would never be the same as a man who was born a man and raised as a man, and they should never try to tell men what “being a man” involves or is like or that all other men must immediately and unquestioningly accept them into their male spaces, groups designed specifically to support men, male friendship groups etc.

Compelled speech or requiring people to pretend that this person was always a man would also still be wrong.

So they’d be a biological man, for day to day purposes could live life “as a man” without most people noticing/caring that they have a different background.

But they still couldn’t and shouldn’t get away with all the shit that the TRAs are advocating for.

Also please stop imagining that you understand what the phrase “gender critical” means, you clearly don’t.

ChewtonRoad · 27/03/2022 07:53

A longstanding friend (with no background in science) told me (substantial background in science) it may be possible in future for humans to change sex because genetics. I told him it was never going to happen as there are no drivers for humans to change sex, and he suggested "you never know" although I bloody well do.

The OP reminds me of that heated conversation, goady for the sake of it and looking for some cackhanded way to deny the fact of human sexual dimorphism.

Nellodee · 27/03/2022 07:59

If people could change sex at will, and it was cheap and risk free, then there would be very few women. There would be no problem with transwomen in women’s sport as their bodies would be female. There would be no problem with transwomen in women’s prisons as they would be female. There would be no problem with the medicalisation of children as the process would be safe, painless and reversible. Female socialisation might not even be a thing any more. The male really would be the default human, because who in their right mind would choose to be female, except perhaps transwomen (who would now just be called women). Everyone would be totally happy until humans started to go extinct from a lack of women.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 07:59

@TheGreatATuin

Would this magical sex change also undo all the prior female socialisation? I'd also like to know if this would be the case in this hypothetical situation.
Nope
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Nellodee · 27/03/2022 08:04

Or, if the process were more expensive, we’d have a situation we here western people all became male, and women from poor countries were traded for wives. In this dystopia as well, rich people would choose to change their skin colour to white, and we would end with a world in which being white and male were ever more important for success.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 08:05

@LittleWhingingWoman

"To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes."

Magic gender and sex change fantasies are what got us to this bullshit mess in the first place.

But whilst you are here I want to ask YOU some questions. These are non magical questions that affect people in the real world.

Do you believe the upsurge in autistic girls identifying as non binary or trans has anything to do with social influence? Many of these girls who are saying they are trans also have mental health issues going on like self harm or anorexia. What safeguarding can there be so these girls aren't getting healthy breast tissue amputated? To repeat - how can we ensure the safety of children with special needs to make sure that they aren't being coerced into believing they can magically change sex?

A woman was raped in an NHS hospital by a transwoman. She was told no rape happened. The rape was caught on CCTV. The NHS staff denied a man was on the ward. As if by magic, the man with a penis who raped the woman was made into a figment of her imagination. What do you think this means for womens safety in hospitals? Are the NHS to be trusted? Apparently this isn't the only case!

Happy to keep asking you questions so don't leave too quickly will you?

Do you believe the upsurge in autistic girls identifying as non binary or trans has anything to do with social influence?

No

how can we ensure the safety of children with special needs to make sure that they aren't being coerced into believing they can magically change sex?

If that was the case wouldn't you be able to coerce them out of it? which so far you haven't been able to? maybe they really are just gender dysphoric?

A woman was raped in an NHS hospital by a transwoman. She was told no rape happened

Lily Cade, a gender-critical women raped other women therefore all gender-critical women are rapists? generalisations based on the actions of bad people in any group are a bad idea no?

Are the NHS to be trusted?

With a 5yr waiting list for just a consult with a gender clinic? no

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Nellodee · 27/03/2022 08:07

Then there would be another group of people who choose to have their personalities uploaded to the internet, or into robots. These new creatures, who would call themselves The Ascended, would wage war to wipe out humanity. They would be successful , end climate change in the process and the world would live happily ever after without humans of either sex.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 08:08

@GoldenGorilla

Ok, I’ll bite.

If a medical procedure could take a woman, change every cell, bone structure, organ size, musculature, dissolve some organs, grow other organs, so that physically and biologically that woman became indistinguishable from a man?

Then that person would biologically be a man.

However they still would not have been raised as a boy, socialised as a boy, treated as a boy/young man by the wider world, had the experiences of a boy who enters puberty, etc etc.

They would never be the same as a man who was born a man and raised as a man, and they should never try to tell men what “being a man” involves or is like or that all other men must immediately and unquestioningly accept them into their male spaces, groups designed specifically to support men, male friendship groups etc.

Compelled speech or requiring people to pretend that this person was always a man would also still be wrong.

So they’d be a biological man, for day to day purposes could live life “as a man” without most people noticing/caring that they have a different background.

But they still couldn’t and shouldn’t get away with all the shit that the TRAs are advocating for.

Also please stop imagining that you understand what the phrase “gender critical” means, you clearly don’t.

Then it seems even if you could biologically become completly a man then you'd still place caviats on what they can and can't do?
OP posts:
Nellodee · 27/03/2022 08:08

I played your game. Do I win a cookie?

MuggleMadness · 27/03/2022 08:09

It's Sunday morning, when I woke up my iPhone told me it was 6:30, but I knew it was really 5:30. I wish it had told me it was1972, not 2022.

It was a better/happier time.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 08:10

@Nellodee

If people could change sex at will, and it was cheap and risk free, then there would be very few women. There would be no problem with transwomen in women’s sport as their bodies would be female. There would be no problem with transwomen in women’s prisons as they would be female. There would be no problem with the medicalisation of children as the process would be safe, painless and reversible. Female socialisation might not even be a thing any more. The male really would be the default human, because who in their right mind would choose to be female, except perhaps transwomen (who would now just be called women). Everyone would be totally happy until humans started to go extinct from a lack of women.
Do you really believe so few females like and want to be females?
OP posts:
pop91 · 27/03/2022 08:13

@Nellodee

Or, if the process were more expensive, we’d have a situation we here western people all became male, and women from poor countries were traded for wives. In this dystopia as well, rich people would choose to change their skin colour to white, and we would end with a world in which being white and male were ever more important for success.
I rather like my brown skin tone, don't think I'd change it if I was given the option (which it technically is with skin lighting procedures.

we would end with a world in which being white and male were ever more important for success

been around for the last 600yrs? we already lived in that world!

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