Hypothetical perfect sex change

[pop91]

Hypothetical:

Say there was a perfect sex change in the future where every single cell could be recoded as male for a trans man, would you then accept transmen as men? or would they need to be born male even if their entire physicality and biology were changed?

(To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes)

I think most women would choose the advantage of male privilege when it made sense to, yes.

For example, most women are unable to travel in India safely without taking quite extreme precautions. We have more difficulty with diving and safari because female bodies are not the default and noone thinks to provide us with somewhere to change sanitary products etc.

I think women would use the default male option more often than not because it would be easier and have many more benefits.

The real question would be would anyone choose to be a woman with all the disadvantages that brings. I suspect not many, if you assume sexuality has no bearing on decisions taken.

What you are essentially asking is: if there was a magic pill that meant you could have a better chance in career, a stronger body, less complications, less mental load put on you, less discrimination, less vulnerable to attack, would you take it?
I assume you are someone not biologically female to have not considered any of these factors?

@Motorina

A few thoughts...

A society where people could change their sex down to their DNA would be radically different from our own. I can see it playing out two ways...

Either the society, like our own, would have one sex which has a real socialisation, career progression, and financial advantage, so everyone would want to choose to be that sex. This would create similar social issues to those we currently have in societies where there is sex-selection abortion, but on a much grander scale. To address this, there would have to be limits on who could change sex, and how. And maybe markers to say 'this one's not a real man' to keep uppity women out of male spaces.

Or, where the burdens of childrearing can fall equally on anyone, then sex-based power differentials could melt away. I can only see that happening if there's an element of choicelessness on the sex change.

If you want to see a thought-experiment played out on the latter, then I would highly recommend Ursula Le Guin's 'The Left Hand of Darkness'. It's one of my very favourite books, and one of its themes is just that.

In either event, it would be a radically different society from our own. So what I, as an individual socialised in a society where I can't change my sex, no matter how much I would want to, would think of individuals who can change their sex at will really isn't the point. The point is how that society would manage when sex is a fluid concept.

I agree it would be fascinating. It would allow us to unpick what is socialisation, what is male-reinforced power structures, and what is the inevitable consequences of a binary sexual biology. And whether there really is a thing called gender identity that exists and persists independent of biological sex. But what I think of it, as a creature who cannot escape my female biology, is irrelevant.

But what I think of it, as a creature who cannot escape my female biology, is irrelevant

you make it sound like being female isn't what you want? like you want to escape being female?

Yes, it's doesn't make you any taller or shorter either.
But height is a feature of male cells so that doesn't make sense.

You either change everything, or nothing. It sounds like you are picking and choosing.

I mean, it's your fantasy/dystopian novel, but as an avid reader I need to tell you a world with inconsistent rules isn't believable.

For the record, I think a believable alternative would be that your height would be similar to your parent

Ok, so this hypothetical procedure doesn't get rid of socialisation - so it's remaking every single cell apart from those in the brain.

How long does this hypothetical procedure take? Is the 'dissolving' an instant thing? I suppose it depends how big you want your new breasts or penis to be.

(In fact, I'm going to bet some hypothetical money that more males would choose bigger breasts for after the procedure but that females wouldn't all be choosing massive cocks.)

So if we didn't choose this sex change we would be voluntarily opting into female oppression without any justification to demand sexual equality?

Who would bear our children? Only those dumb enough to accept the oppression?

@MyLittlePhonyPony

I think most women would choose the advantage of male privilege when it made sense to, yes.

For example, most women are unable to travel in India safely without taking quite extreme precautions. We have more difficulty with diving and safari because female bodies are not the default and noone thinks to provide us with somewhere to change sanitary products etc.

I think women would use the default male option more often than not because it would be easier and have many more benefits.

The real question would be would anyone choose to be a woman with all the disadvantages that brings. I suspect not many, if you assume sexuality has no bearing on decisions taken.

What you are essentially asking is: if there was a magic pill that meant you could have a better chance in career, a stronger body, less complications, less mental load put on you, less discrimination, less vulnerable to attack, would you take it?
I assume you are someone not biologically female to have not considered any of these factors?

I am a Trans Man but no none of that played a part in to my transition.

I didn't think I'd be getting any advantages to transitioning.

I do feel weird that so many women here don't, particularly like being female. I wonder if this is purely practical on advantages vs disadvantages basis rather than a gender dysphoria basis?

Do you think if women who don't have gender dysphoria transitioned they would then experience gender dysphoria living as men?

@Motorina have just downloaded Ursula Le Guin's 'The Left Hand of Darkness' based on your recommendation.

Great highlighting of the key issues with this thought experiment.

Other than the low pay and being patronised would you really want to opt-out of the rest?
Aren't there actually many women who enjoy pregnancy and childbirth (not all or even most but at least some)
I just refuse to believe women hate being female THAT much and none of these reasons played into why I transitioned

Well no one is going to choose to transition for low pay. But this is supposed to be a thought experiment.
So why can’t I identify out of pain, debilitation and illness?
And if there is genuine choice, why not take the option to be stronger and faster?
The lived reality of womanhood isn’t imagined.

you've said a lot about what other people believe OP. what do you believe?

You firmly believe you have a male gender identity I think - have I got that right?

If so, how do you know? what does a male gender identity look like?

I suppose if in the future it was possible to change someone physically at every level

• chromosomes
• hormone levels
• genitalia
• breast tissue
• reduce bone density
• reduce heart size
• reduce lung capacity
• widen pelvis and change centre of balance

.........

Then we could say that that person was now physically the other sex. There would still be differences from being raised as a boy or girl that affect socialisation and behaviours. Girls are bombarded with messages to 'be kind' and put themselves last, to be quiet and considerate, whereas boys are bombarded with messages to be powerful, to take control. Those cannot be dismissed.

you make it sound like being female isn't what you want? like you want to escape being female?

Personally, I would like to not escape being female, but to escape the gender role (box) that society enforces on me because I am female.

But where my opinion differs from gender ideology is that I don't think the solution is to continue to enforce the boxes but let people change their box. I say get rid of the boxes.

Question OP - do you feel more that you 'identify as a man' or that you 'don't identify as a woman'? I ask this because I've asked it to TW in the past and I would find it interesting to hear your perspective as a TM.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

Yes, it's doesn't make you any taller or shorter either. But height is a feature of male cells so that doesn't make sense.

You either change everything, or nothing. It sounds like you are picking and choosing.

I mean, it's your fantasy/dystopian novel, but as an avid reader I need to tell you a world with inconsistent rules isn't believable.

For the record, I think a believable alternative would be that your height would be similar to your parent

I mean short men and tall women exist so the procedure wouldn't hypothetically change or unlock height.

I'm looking for a purely gendered perspective so an ugly man would still be an ugly woman and so on.

Just the biological sex aspects would change.

you make it sound like being female isn't what you want? like you want to escape being female?

I'd like the 20% extra pay.

I'd like not being told, "cheer up, hon, it's not that bad".

I'd like to be able to do pushups. And run faster.

I could have done without being raped.

Periods can do one, too.

So, yeah, if 12 year old me could have taken the pill, and done the whole chrysalis dissolve thing and come out with a shiney new dick, better career prospects, and no sodding periods then she probably would have done.

But that's not the world we live in. Society and socialisation are shaped by the fact we can't change sex. If we could, society would look very different, probably in unexpected ways.

I think in your hypothetical, changing every cell in your body and producing a different body down to face would produce dysphoria in most people.

The same as if we could change our bodies and faces to look like beautiful faces it would too.

I couldn't comment about dysphoria in our current world because I am of the opinion that my uncomfortableness with being a woman I accept is down to the inconvenience and disadvantages of being a woman. I was brought up to deal with annoyances such as inconvenient, painful periods and conditions as endometriosis as just part of my body.

I'm surprised you are surprised most women don't enjoy female oppression or the messy inconvenient parts of being female. Do you not have any female friends or family!?

@DickKerrLadiesaurus

Ok, so this hypothetical procedure doesn't get rid of socialisation - so it's remaking every single cell apart from those in the brain.

How long does this hypothetical procedure take? Is the 'dissolving' an instant thing? I suppose it depends how big you want your new breasts or penis to be.

(In fact, I'm going to bet some hypothetical money that more males would choose bigger breasts for after the procedure but that females wouldn't all be choosing massive cocks.)

Ok, so this hypothetical procedure doesn't get rid of socialisation - so it's remaking every single cell apart from those in the brain.

I mean there's research to suggest trans men already have brains similar to that of cis men and vice versa for trans women.

How long does this hypothetical procedure take? Is the 'dissolving' an instant thing?

No, I mentioned it above. could be months.

hypothetical money that more males would choose bigger breasts for after the procedure but that females wouldn't all be choosing massive cocks

Lol, literally a meme where trans women are known to choose small tits and biggest LOL at thinking trans men wouldn't choose big dicks.

Beautiful celebs not faces.

Though all these things would be a bit Freaky Friday.

@ChateauMargaux

So if we didn't choose this sex change we would be voluntarily opting into female oppression without any justification to demand sexual equality?

Who would bear our children? Only those dumb enough to accept the oppression?

I mean supposedly females would be in demand. Time to use the rarity model for bargaining power!

@Cuck00soup

Other than the low pay and being patronised would you really want to opt-out of the rest? Aren't there actually many women who enjoy pregnancy and childbirth (not all or even most but at least some) I just refuse to believe women hate being female THAT much and none of these reasons played into why I transitioned

Well no one is going to choose to transition for low pay. But this is supposed to be a thought experiment.
So why can’t I identify out of pain, debilitation and illness?
And if there is genuine choice, why not take the option to be stronger and faster?
The lived reality of womanhood isn’t imagined.

well, gender dysphoria is a bitch too so dealing with that if you transition?

@pop91... seriously??? We would valuable commodities as breeding stock???

I mean supposedly females would be in demand.

females are already in demand you fool. it does not go well for us

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chibok_schoolgirls_kidnapping

[quote MyLittlePhonyPony]@Motorina have just downloaded Ursula Le Guin's 'The Left Hand of Darkness' based on your recommendation.

Great highlighting of the key issues with this thought experiment.[/quote]
It can take a bit of getting into. Lots of difficult names at the start, so persevere.

If you like feminist thought experiment SF, I'd also recommend 'The Gate to Women's Country' by Sherri Tepper. Which I think I picked up from a recommendation on here, actually. I'd also recommend 'Glory Season' by David Brin.

Lol, literally a meme where trans women are known to choose small tits and biggest LOL at thinking trans men wouldn't choose big dicks.

Sorry, is this hypothetical procedure only for trans people? I thought this was a thought experiment?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

you've said a lot about what other people believe OP. what do you believe?

You firmly believe you have a male gender identity I think - have I got that right?

If so, how do you know? what does a male gender identity look like?

you've said a lot about what other people believe OP. what do you believe? I posted another thread about my mother. I share my thoughts more there.

You firmly believe you have a male gender identity I think - have I got that right? If so, how do you know? what does a male gender identity look like?

My brain tells me that I was meant to have a flat chest and dick but I didn't have those so that caused me distress and gender dysphoria.

Neuroplasticity is a thing op. Coma patients can retrain their brain to new pathways so they can learn to move paralysed parts of their body.

London taxi drivers can rewire their brains to better navigate the streets.

So any change in a transpersons brain is likely to have been nurtured by imitating and taking part in more stereotypically male or female activities.

Also, as someone who has some experience with brain scans and frustration at how little they can tell us about life limiting conditions, I find breezy assertions that the brain is that easily explored quite offensive.

There are people living with brain injuries that are so profound they don't have the use of their bodies and yet brain scans show their brains are within normal parameters.

It feels a bit like appropriation for want of a better word.

Maya Angelou was right about believing people when they show you who they are.