Hypothetical perfect sex change

[pop91]

Hypothetical:

Say there was a perfect sex change in the future where every single cell could be recoded as male for a trans man, would you then accept transmen as men? or would they need to be born male even if their entire physicality and biology were changed?

(To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes)

for some reason, it felt important for people to work out that I am a trans man?

It is important.

The experiences of transmen and transwomen are very different, so much so that I'd say these days that you will need to campaign separately for at least some of what you want. You come from such a different place socially, physically and emotionally, transition has a different effect on your lives, and you want different things. You have a common cause but not an identical cause.

And from the point of view of women ourselves, allowing transwomen into women's space on their own terms presents a threat to our safety that transmen don't present either to other women or to other men.

So yes, we want to know who we are talking to so we can have a meaningful conversation.

5. That there is not an understanding in GC beliefs that a reason beyond social is possible for the existence of trans people and there is no biological reason Trans people exist, for example, hormone anomalies in the womb?

There are identical twins where one twin has transitioned and the other hasn’t, so it’s unlikely that “being trans” has a complete biological explanation or cause.

My personal suspicion is that some cases of gender non conforming behaviour patterns and homosexuality possibly have some kind of biological underpinning or tendency. I suspect that gender dysphoria might well result from bullying such children for their gender non-conformity from a very early age, so that the bullying was occurring over the time period when the child formed an understanding of self and which sex they were. Easy to understand that a child who had constant reinforcement that their behaviour patterns were not acceptable for a person of their sex might draw the false conclusion that they must be the opposite sex.

So for homosexual transsexuals there may well be underlying physical differences, in brain structure, for example. But I think it’s likely that it’s the homosexuality that relates to this difference. The “transness” is, in my opinion, probably more related to socialisation during the critical period of growing up, where understanding of the self is formed.

This is because there is no one person in the story who could be thought of as undergoing the change. There is the person at the start, a woman (in OP's telling), who is then destroyed to be replaced by a man.

What was that show on Netflix that featured Paul Rudd as a man who paid a company to transform him into the perfect version of himself? They buried him in the woods and replaced him with an upgraded clone (not a spoiler, the premise of the show is his coexistence with the improved clone.)

It wasn't a brilliant show, but it's more interesting discussion fodder than OP's scenario.

The experiences of transmen and transwomen are very different,

In case it wasn't clear - I meant "The experiences of transmen and transwomen are very different from each other "

5. That there is not an understanding in GC beliefs that a reason beyond social is possible for the existence of trans people and there is no biological reason Trans people exist, for example, hormone anomalies in the womb?

There is a clear lack of understanding among genderists of ''innate'. Our sexed identity, our perception of the sex of others, and our sexual orientation are innate. We know this to be true because they all persist when a person develops dementia; whereas gender identity is lost and people become distressed about their wrong genitals and clothing.

I think I'd enjoy flip-flopping between man and woman form. I'd go to work as a man, and exercise as a man, and I'd definitely walk home at night/alone as a man.

But then I do love my (straight) DH so I suppose I'd need to be a woman when I'm with him.

This hypothetical has been done - why dont you read some of the Iain M Banks 'Culture' novels OP?

I mean there's research to suggest trans men already have brains similar to that of cis men and vice versa for trans women.

But other than size (in relation to whole body size) there is no significant difference?

theconversation.com/you-dont-have-a-male-or-female-brain-the-more-brains-scientists-study-the-weaker-the-evidence-for-sex-differences-158005

I think op was referring to structural neuroplasticity.

Which just shows that they don't really understand how the brain develops.

Structural changes in the brain are widely accepted to happen through exposure to experiences and exposure to different things.

For example, differences can be seen in the brain between children that have been abused and those who have not. Studies have shown children that have excessive screen time have built similar pathways in their brain.

This is why the toys should be toys campaign is so good- little girls playing with cars and building blocks helps build pathways that help engineering skills later on and little boys playing with dolls builds empathy pathways.

So I would expect a trans person who had been doing stereotypical opposite sex activities for a reasonable amount of time to show some similarities to a person that had similar experiences and hobbies. This definitely does not prove trans is innate but that nurture is a powerful tool for neuroplasticity. So in theory of you work in engineering and scanned all the brains of your colleagues they would have similar pathways regardless of sex or perceived gender identity. Ditto nurses, London can drivers etc.

But as I said earlier in the thread, brain scans are a rather limited tool anyway and I don't like people co opting them to suit their agenda when they are mainly used for people with life altering conditions.

I think it's a fair enough question. If we had technology that changed every single aspects of a person's genetics and every single secondary sexual characteristic then yes I guess they've changed sex. In terms of things like all women short lists, though, men who changed to women would have grown up with male privilege and should not be allowed on them.

We are a million miles away from this though so I think it's interesting to ponder but irrelevant to the current situation. Right now we can just tinker with external appearance and slightly adjust hormones. I think all this question does is highlight how little anyone changes when they 'transition' and the reasons why it is cultural appropriation for men to talk about their 'period pains' or 'vagina' (pseudo-vagina OK, it's nothing like an actual vagina when you fashion it out of a penis).

@pop91 To answer the OP, briefly the answer would be no.

1. There is no conceivable way that a tool such as Crispr would be able to alter the chromosomal makeup in every single cell in the body
2. Even if it were possible, the vast majority of cell types in the body - creation of organs, overall physiology and physicality, having undergone a specific sexed development pathway, cannot from then onwards utilize the genes that underpin that development to alter their function. They are already mature and fixed. Stem cells are more flexible.

The sexed body and the development of same cannot be altered to then be of the opposite sex, after the event. The OP is fantasy.

Sex is determined at conception. It can't be changed.

Appearance can be changed, but that's all.

I haven't RTFT, so apologies - I'm sure this has been said before.

Interesting recent talk on 'the gendered brain' -

There is a question regarding trans-gender persons at around 45 mins in the talk which is to the point. Overall, brains of males and females are hugely diverse, but there is no male Vs female brain.
Feeling you should be of the opposite sex because you feel different in your gender to what you feel fits your sexed body is extremely narrow and damaging, and plain wrong.
Your sexed body is your body. How you feel about your gender identity is likely influenced by external conditioning including fixed and insidious social stereotypes. That will also make a person feel they need to change their sexed body to be able to express their gender in a way more socially acceptable. I think, and most of those who are dismissed as 'GC' or 'transphobic' feel that is wrong - that no-one should feel they have to undergo such a painful and ultimately incomplete medical transformation - particularly girls - in order to express themselves as they wish, particularly not to fit in to a social category.
That is upholding the rights of the individual to express who they are, as they are. Those rights are here, now, legally.

But the sexed body is, and always will be, immutable and some sex-based provisions will remain necessary and appropriate.