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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

607 replies

DameHelena · 26/03/2022 19:41

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

OP posts:
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Fairislefandango · 27/03/2022 16:08

That's incidental chat, though, not attention seeking chat.

Yes. Normal chat like you'd have with anyone of either sex. Not chat you're really excited to have because it gives you the thrilling but incorrect notion that it means you're womaning convincingly.

tabbycatstripy · 27/03/2022 16:09

'clearly not. I am just amused how it is inconceivable to you that a "normal" woman would argue for trans existence, so I must be male.'

I don't find that inconceivable. I do find it inconceivable that a female who has used women's toilets for her whole life in the UK would ask a stranger to pass her a paper towel.

tabbycatstripy · 27/03/2022 16:10

'Not chat you're really excited to have because it gives you the thrilling but incorrect notion that it means you're womaning convincingly.'

It's very like a chat-up line: 'Excuse me, would you mind passing me a paper towel [and would you like to see my etchings]?

Aretina · 27/03/2022 16:11

Catherina, it is not just that you are arguing in support of trans privilege.

There are many little throwaway comments and turns of phrase that come across as male.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 27/03/2022 16:13

"always tell" refers to being around someone. But I think you know that. On this online forum you'll never know which of the two sexes all the readers think you are.

-

Legally, it's perfectly legit for organisations to invoke the exceptions which allow for single-sex spaces. Without checking the organisation's policy in advance, isn't it better that males who know they are males stay out of women's facilities on the grounds that they MIGHT be breaking the law by using them? I mean, they could also give a flying fart about women's feelings, needs, dignity & privacy but for some males, that'll be the day when pigs fly.

RVN123 · 27/03/2022 16:15

Have to echo what previous women have said.
I have never in my 40 odd years had a conversation like that in the ladies toilets.
Never.
I just go in, do my business, wash my hands and get out.
I've never been asked to pass paper towels, tampons, or been complimented or complimented anyone else on their choice of shoes / lipstick shade / hair colour / dress.

I can see why transwomen THINK this is what happens on a daily basis in the ladies bathrooms - because all they know about being a woman is what they have seen in bad ""Lifetime" movies and from fantasies written by men. They don't and can't know what it is to be a woman, because they are not women.
Just like I don't know what it is to be disabled, deaf, blind, or a man. I have no idea. And I would never claim that I did.

The facts, OP, are:

  1. Women have ALWAYS known.
  2. Most of us were NEVER happy about it
  3. We put up with it through fear / intimidation / not wanting to cause a fuss
  4. Now there are MANY MANY more people claiming they are "trans"
  5. Now there are men - men with a problem we are not allowed to mention on Mumsnet - who will use the loophole of saying they are "trans" to access female spaces for their own nefarious purposes
  6. Admitting ONE male (of any sort), makes the space immediately mixed sex and no longer a single sex female space
  7. Males already can use the male bathroom or the disabled bathroom. Why do they need to colonise the ladies spaces too?
  8. Males should "shove over" and admit TWs into the male estate. Why is it up to women to encompass males who "feel" they are not male? Widen the bandwith of what it means to be male instead of expecting women to admit males into their safe spaces
  9. Women HAVE been attacked by TWs in their spaces. This is a FACT. And one time is one time TOO MANY.
10. We cannot tell who the "good" or "real" ones are just by looking at them. And therefore, we say a blanket "NO" to any males in our spaces. For our own protection - because as you are aware, 98% of all sex attacks are committed by MALES.

There are lots more reasons.
But mainly, we know.

Fairislefandango · 27/03/2022 16:15

clearly not. I am just amused how it is inconceivable to you that a "normal" woman would argue for trans existence, so I must be male.

Oh the 'existence' thing again. Nobody is debating trans people's existence. If we thought they didn't exist, discussing their access to women's spaces would be a bit pointless, wouldn't it? I can't say I give much thought to whether I want to share a bathroom with non-existent entities (unicorns, werewolves?).

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 27/03/2022 16:17

I hate seeing men use our facilities. But like many women I've been injured by male violence and I haven't the strength or courage to object. Every man who does this knows that he is oppressing women, so I can't believe they don't enjoy this.

Unsure33 · 27/03/2022 16:22

@VampireMoney

My best friend is a transwoman. You'd walk past her in the loos and never even know she's trans. You might even compliment her on her beautiful hair or her outfit or ask where she got her shoes. She might say she loves your lipstick shade. And you'd go on with your day not knowing you'd spoken to a transwoman.

Get. A. Grip.

Looks ,clothes,shoes ,lipstick are not what makes a woman a woman .
tabbycatstripy · 27/03/2022 16:22

And here's why 'Please could you pass me a paper towel' comes across as male:

A. Intrusive - toilets are places where people are there for a quick functional purpose and they might not want to be disturbed.
B. Entitled - get your own paper towel.
C. Stands out as a lead-in to further conversation - you could very easily get it yourself, so what's the reason for the request?
D. It's clearly a male idea of what happens in female toilets - no man in a men's toilet has ever asked another man to 'pass him a towel' (or someone would have told me).

TheCurrywurstPrion · 27/03/2022 16:23

Glad to see that it isn’t just me who finds it inconceivable that anyone would ask someone else for a paper towel in a public toilet.

Has any woman here actually been asked for a paper towel? Toilet paper, I can just about imagine, but if I’ve just washed my hands, I’m not about to ask a stranger to touch the thing I’m about to dry them on.

I can only add that the concept seemed so odd to me that I wondered whether to start an AIBU thread on it.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 27/03/2022 16:24

@EdithStourton

Re convos in the loos, my most memorable one was when I rushed in and upchucked with proper sound effects, and emerged ashen-faced.

The woman already washing her hands looked at me sideways, but didn't say anything. I looked at her sideways. 'Morning sickness,' I said. 'Oh love,' she said, 'that's horrible, I had it terribly!'

But I can't remember a single discussion about clothes, hair, makeup or shoes with anyone other than someone I know already.

Lots of generic chat, though, about the lack of soap, or the uselessness of the hand driers, or the length of the bloody queue!

100% agree.

Don't know if anyone's said this, but I find that women make comments about other women's appearance, ask for their stylist's details, etc, anywhere BUT in the toilets.

I'm in my sixties, & my experience of women's loos has always been that we're all scrupulous about NOT taking too much of an interest in the other women there. We might glance, but we don't say anything. To do otherwise would be creepy or just impolite: 'not nice', as my mother would've said.

The most I've ever done is tell a woman that she might want to adjust her skirt (the hem was caught in her knickers). Saving someone's dignity = OK, anything else isn't.

It's like men's toilets always being shown on TV as a place where men piss next to each other while discussing some topic of interest or carrying on a chat they were already having outside. I always assumed this was a guy thing until I asked DH about it & his reaction was, "God, no!". It's not what happens at all, apparently.

Clymene · 27/03/2022 16:24

Why do you think transwomen should use women's spaces @CatherinaJTV?

LauriePartridge4Eva · 27/03/2022 16:25

Do these men really think that boasting to women how they have been trampling on our boundaries, accessing our single sex spaces, disrespecting our consent and putting their feelings before our safety, is going to make us say 'Oh ok then...you obviously aren't a walking red flag at all then, are you, so come on in'? Amazing how these dicks think that's a gotcha.Confused

Jaxhog · 27/03/2022 16:26

@mudgetastic

The reality is that transpeople had to undergo a lot of therapy which included making it quite clear that single sec spaces could legitimately exclude them

That tended to mean they didn't assume . At work we had extra loos created for our translady . She joined some of the women events , but only after asking politely not assuming

The entitlement is very recent

This. It's the assumption, now supported by law, that is so offensive. We clearly don't have the right to a say.
AlisonDonut · 27/03/2022 16:27

I mean, most women don't spend months and months berating women for not removing ALL safeguarding, do they?

Do they?

What other reason would a female be so determined to get men into female spaces? I just can't fathom it.

tabbycatstripy · 27/03/2022 16:28

'Has any woman here actually been asked for a paper towel? Toilet paper, I can just about imagine, but if I’ve just washed my hands, I’m not about to ask a stranger to touch the thing I’m about to dry them on.'

Never, and if I was asked I would step back and give them space to get their own and I wouldn't say anything. I'm not the maid.

tabbycatstripy · 27/03/2022 16:29

(Unless they were accompanied by screaming baby, or elderly, or clearly unable to get it themselves.)

Kanaloa · 27/03/2022 16:29

@AlisonDonut

I mean, most women don't spend months and months berating women for not removing ALL safeguarding, do they?

Do they?

What other reason would a female be so determined to get men into female spaces? I just can't fathom it.

Well if they can’t access women’s toilets how will they know which lipstick shades to buy? That’s where we find these things out you know, that’s why the queue is always so long. It’s like a Boots makeover counter in there.
aylis · 27/03/2022 16:30

People have some very strange ideas about women’s toilets. Even when they try to hit on the camaraderie that ~can~ be experiences in women’s toilets eg on nights out, it still comes over all wrong. You can’t force it, and you especially can’t force it if you’re not a woman.

StopLying · 27/03/2022 16:32

humor me - what sex am I?

Your identity is pretty apparent. Maybe you didn't realise that.

Fluffycloudland77 · 27/03/2022 16:33

What conversations? go in, do what you have to, wash hands and leave. Do men think we're having girly chats like the Little Britain transwomen have?

Maybe I should start going in with dh to the mens loos and if anyone asks I'll say I self ID as male. He'll back me up.

tabbycatstripy · 27/03/2022 16:35

'You can’t force it, and you especially can’t force it if you’re not a woman.'

Unfortunately, this is true. We seem to be operating between two poles held in tension here: one where TW insist that all they want to do is pass and fit in and use the facilities without being noticed, and the other where that acceptance has to be the loudest thing in the room.

Best advice from me from anyone transitioning and wanting to fit in in female spaces is act desperate for the toilet (though still very polite) and as harassed and stressed as possible, and leave as quickly as you can.

CatherinaJTV · 27/03/2022 16:36

@Clymene

Why do you think transwomen should use women's spaces *@CatherinaJTV*?
because they're women
Pluvia · 27/03/2022 16:36

'Clearly I am an abnormal pervert.'

What makes you say that, CatherineJTV?