‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

[DameHelena]

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

@Helleofabore

The inconsistencies in Catharina’s posts are enlightening though. Because they absolutely show that Catharina has little regard for making life better for women, but will pretzel their thinking to make life better for males.

But there are inconsistencies and they are very plain to see on this thread.

Yeah. Catharina is also very selective in answering questions directed specifically at her/him.

If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better

Oh for goodness sake.

1. Yes, female people know thank you that whether or not they come away from an encounter with a male person is pretty much in the gift of that male person, who may or may not choose to be appropriate with their height, weight, strength, advantage and the fact that the female is in possession of biology that they might like to make use of in some way.

How bloody sexist do you have to be to think females should regard this primarily as their opportunity to let male people make good choices? Female people are not resources for the happiness and betterment of males and they have other things to do with their lives than bloody well run around sorting males out

2. If you put children in segregated spaces then are we taking the onus off child abusers to be better? If we put murderers in segregated spaces are we taking the onus off them to make good choices and learn (presumably after a few mistakes) how jolly nice it is not to kill people?

I'm baffled there are apparently adults who walk around thinking like this.

No. Segregation is good in many things and females need and want segregated spaces from males. How males feel about this is the last thing relevant. (And a very big indicator of why females need those gatekept spaces in the first place.)

It has never yet ended in affront, affray or fisticuffs.

How weird that you add this?

No, I don’t strike up conversations with random people on the tube. Pre covid I was often jammed up into their personal space. On buses and on overland trains to Waterloo too. I cannot imagine someone starting a conversation with me while my face is in their armpit and they are hanging or while we are both trying to find some way to give the other privacy because we are jammed in and in each other’s personal space fighting for a position to hold onto the pole.

But each to their own.

I have complimented women on their clothes on buses and in cafes. But I always start by saying 'Do you mind....?' Because - in my experience at least - women tend to ask first before doing anything, don't we? even before giving compliments. This is why I find it so interesting that so many transwomen not only seem to think it's ok to use women's spaces without asking, but then take our silence as consent.

@Helleofabore

It has never yet ended in affront, affray or fisticuffs.

How weird that you add this?

No, I don’t strike up conversations with random people on the tube. Pre covid I was often jammed up into their personal space. On buses and on overland trains to Waterloo too. I cannot imagine someone starting a conversation with me while my face is in their armpit and they are hanging or while we are both trying to find some way to give the other privacy because we are jammed in and in each other’s personal space fighting for a position to hold onto the pole.

But each to their own.

Oh, sorry that I added something not in absolute direct response to your exact words...

Do you think I or anyone else tends to start conversations while one person's face is in the other's armpit or we're both fighting to hold onto the pole? Or can you imagine that, just maybe, as we most of us have some basic social awareness, we strike up chat when conditions are amenable (perhaps while standing on a quiet platform, or sitting across the tube carriage from one another)?

Let all men and transwomen use the male facilities which should mean that the onus is on men to behave well. Call them mixed gender if they must, but stay the hell out of ours.

And yet here we are discussing personal privacy and boundaries.

Seems obvious that some people have ones that others don’t understand.

tabbycatstripy
The paper towel thing I still think is downright odd.

Maybe it’s something men do in their toilets and like many males, transwomen and otherwise, they project their behaviour onto us

@Floisme

I have complimented women on their clothes on buses and in cafes. But I always start by saying 'Do you mind....?' Because - in my experience at least - women tend to ask first before doing anything, don't we? even before giving compliments. This is why I find it so interesting that so many transwomen not only seem to think it's ok to use women's spaces without asking, but then take our silence as consent.

You know what, all women are individuals that might start conversations in different ways.

That’s a verrrrry long dinner you’re having @CatherinaJTV

You know what, all women are individuals that might start conversations in different ways.
That's why I was very careful to say 'I' and 'in my experience... ' and 'tend to'. But thank you for asking.

'Maybe it’s something men do in their toilets and like many males, transwomen and otherwise, they project their behaviour onto us'

I think it's the opposite. Men never do it and some people think it's a 'womany' thing to do.

If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better

This is rather shocking. Most men don't attack women to begin with, but those predators who do will not try to be better if they have free access to their prey. There is no learning process here.

Extend this argument to all groups at risk of being attacked by other groups and you can then clearly see how cruel such an approach would be. Pedophiles, for instance, will not try to do better if child safeguarding is relaxed.

It's of course irrelevant for the topic of this thread whether women compliment the makeup or hair of women they don't know in public spaces. What is more relevant is how often this happens, i.e., if this is very common behaviour which somehow might be a thing many people mention as a personal experience from using public women's toilets or if it is fairly uncommon.

I think it is the latter, but individuals who don't use women's toilets might not know that it is uncommon, but imagine it to be so that it would be used in an example of a typical trans woman experience in women's loos.

Just thought about the paper towel thing, and frankly I feel a bit sick.

Of course they have I'm not sure I understand vyour confusion. Do you think someone with a female appearance would go into the men's?

@Monitaurus

Just thought about the paper towel thing, and frankly I feel a bit sick.

yep

@DameHelena

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

Weak, as so many of their arguments are.

Thing X has been done by Group Y for Z years.

Is not the argument they're making either. It's

Thing X has been done by Group Y for Z years. Why are you suddenly bothered?!

Which assumes that anyone outside of Group Y must accept it. Which assumes that anything done for any length of time must be okay. Which assumes that no one has been bothered by Thing X being done before. Which assumes that objections aren't valid if they're not voiced immediately.

All of these assumptions are false.

Duration tells us nothing about how right or wrong something is. Objections not being voiced tells us nothing about whether there are objections. And history is just chock full of examples of particular groups doing things others object to and getting away with it. For centuries. Millenia even. And history too is filled with examples of uprisings against wrongdoings only after many years of enduring wrongs. There comes a moment when enduring is more harmful than resisting. I think that's where many of us are now.

And saying that men have been using women's spaces for decades without women's consent and getting away with it is not what I would call a winning argument. Many of us are only now speaking out because we didn't dare before. It's not because we didn't mind.

@maddy68

Of course they have I'm not sure I understand vyour confusion. Do you think someone with a female appearance would go into the men's?

That enquiry has been answered a number of times upthread if you're wondering about the usual responses to that.

In a nutshell, Grayson Perry, Fionne Orlander, Miranda Yardley, and other transwomen use the men's.

Thank you, Charlie.

And saying that men have been using women's spaces for decades without women's consent and getting away with it is not what I would call a winning argument. Many of us are only now speaking out because we didn't dare before. It's not because we didn't mind.

Yes, and worth bearing in mind I still wouldn't confront a male in a woman's space. I am angry, but I'm also very aware of the risks involved in confronting males.

@maddy68

Of course they have I'm not sure I understand vyour confusion. Do you think someone with a female appearance would go into the men's?

Wearing a dress doesn't equal a 'female appearance' women are still women when they are wearing tracky bottoms, no makeup and short hair. Putting on a dress doesn't make a man look like a woman - it makes him look like a man in a dress.

One thing that really fucking boils my piss though. Is being in a long freaking queue for the ladies which is populated with boys who are old enough to go to the toilet by themselves. As soon as they can unzip, pee, shake, zip up and wash their hands they should go in the men's.

Most kids can do this by age 4. I wouldn’t send a preschooler into the men’s toilets alone and wouldn’t expect most parents to.

What’s needed is more family toilets so parents can supervise their children. The answer isn’t sending small children into public toilets unsupervised and alone.

@Monitaurus

Let all men and transwomen use the male facilities which should mean that the onus is on men to behave well. Call them mixed gender if they must, but stay the hell out of ours.

Looks like Cath has hit on the solution.

Transwomen in men’s toilets so the men Do Better.

Thanks Cath!