‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

[DameHelena]

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

most violence in prisons is nt woman on nt woman

Now you are just being silly, Catherine.

Most violence in prisons is by men on men.
Because the vast majority of the prison population is male.

And then there is the fact that transwomen offend at the same rate as men.
Which you have also conveniently ignored.

@Mamapep
"You shouldn’t form your understanding on the experiences of others from mn threads."

Which is what you're asking us to do by saying it's normal for women to get into conversations about makeup and clothes with women, when most of us are saying this hasn't happened (not to me in over 40 years) or is extremely rare and potentially something that happens in a larger social gathering like a wedding.

I don't at all understand your perspective and normalisation of men in women's loos chatting with women.

[quote Enough4me]@Mamapep
"You shouldn’t form your understanding on the experiences of others from mn threads."

Which is what you're asking us to do by saying it's normal for women to get into conversations about makeup and clothes with women, when most of us are saying this hasn't happened (not to me in over 40 years) or is extremely rare and potentially something that happens in a larger social gathering like a wedding.

I don't at all understand your perspective and normalisation of men in women's loos chatting with women.[/quote]
I was talking about my experience only (I’m female, I’m not asking you to normalise anything). My experience is normal, and so is yours. Why can’t both be normal?

@Mamapep I can’t see why the experience of those on this thread is unworthy of consideration. I’m female and ancient so I expect I’ve used a fair few ladies toilets in all sorts of countries and settings too. It’s all fairly ridiculous anyway. I don’t want trans women to use female toilets (or any female spaces), I’d like them to use the toilets that reflect their sex. I honestly don’t see what the problem is with that. I understand they WANT to use female toilets etc but the answer for me is “no” and I sincerely doubt that there are many more inconvenienced by that than me as the carer of a young man who needs one to one support. Sometimes life is inconvenient and not everyone gets to do what they want.

@Mamapep of course have your opinion, but it isn't greater than mine, particularly when you want a minority to have rights that infringe existing rights.

I'd like to be younger, but I cannot choose to join a secondary school sixth form. I'd like to be rich, but I cannot help myself to a mansion.

Men may wish to use women's loos to chat about lipstick, but they cannot.

@5zeds

I think it was never received a complement on their clothes/makeup from a random in a toilet. What do you want them to do lie and say they have?

What a strange question. I haven't said anything which could lead you to that conclusion.

But perhaps they could accept other women's experiences are different? Indeed that other women aren't lying? Do you expect me and Mamapep to lie and say "no, this never happens"

@Enough4me

Women aren't all one smiling being with lipstick, styled hair and socially 'fashionable' clothes. We are unique and while some may like compliments, others may feel unnerved by sudden feedback on our appearance. If someone gave me feedback I would likely give them an odd look, as I dress for me and not to comply or seek a rating.

Oddly I dress for me as well. What a narrow mindset you have if you think being interested in clothes or style is just to "comply" or to attract a man.

@Mamapep of course have your opinion, but it isn't greater than mine, particularly when you want a minority to have rights that infringe existing rights

Has Mamapep done that on here? I don't think she has commented one way or another on whether trans women should use female toilets. I haven't.

I have never talked with a stranger about makeup or hair i public toilets, or about anything much. It is not a common thing though it probably does happen.

Just wanted to add that piece of information for those who wonder what exotic stuff might take place in women's toilets.

The point is not whether women are chatting in the loos, but whether we want men in there too, chatty or otherwise.

The answer is no. I do not.

And yes, we know that men have been in our spaces for a while. It has been limiting us for a while.
My friend will not allow her teenage daughter to go swimming because of its policy of allowing men in the women's changing room. Thankfully my local pool has a much more sensible policy.
Other women have stopped using gyms or other facilities. Girls are skipping school, or getting UTIs as they try to avoid using the toilets.

These are the consequences of these men insisting on using our spaces.

What does feel more comfortable as women mean?
Feel more comfortable wearing dresses/long hair? That's stereotypes.
Feel more comfortable when other people refer to them as women? Most people feel more comfortable when others refer to them as honest, kind, intelligent etc. That doesn't mean they are so. Wanting other people to think you are a thing is not a definition of being that thing.
Feel more comfortable in women's spaces? I want in so let me in. Pure male entitlement.

I am right handed because I feel more comfortable writing with my right hand - there is a difference between LH side and right hand side, and right hand side involves an /action/. Like you say I am a swimmer because I enjoy swimming. But you don't say that animal is a dog because it feels comfortable barking. Dog category, and woman category, are not defined by actions. Or if you think otherwise, what action or actions might womanning be that one could define being a woman in this way?

As for we should provide safe spaces /instead of segregating by sex/. How does one set about making spaces safe? It's really difficult to do, but you start by identifying risk factors, then try to control/mitigate. Sex is a massive risk factor, so making spaces where people are particularly vulnerable single sex is often the very first step in making spaces safe.

Just this week, Catherina reacted to a(n autistic) man shouting at a male transitioner (for using the women's toilets at an LGB Alliance conference where it was established that the toilets were separated by sex) by saying he shouldn't be allowed out in public. (Catherina then explained she hadn't known the man was autistic.)

So if male transitioners/transwomen are involved, it is acceptable to prevent men who might shout at them sharing their space. There was zero concern that separating shouting man from society would take the onus off shouting man to be better.

But if we separate male convicts (including males convicted of sexual offences) from female victims, we're taking the onus away from the male convicts to do better?

Something a bit odd here..

I think the usual double standards have been enhanced with a huge dollop of cognitive dissonance.

@KimikosNightmare that's great, so you are agreeing that men shouldn't be in women's spaces and think @Mamapep feels the same. Good to hear.

I cannot imagine why anyone would ask someone at the sinks to pass a paper towel.

Seriously? Who does that.

Either the passer has hands unwashed from their toileting, or the passer has wet hands themselves and would be passing you a paper towel with their wet hands.

And, if you have a disability and cannot reach the paper towel, people might offer but I would be also talking to the owners of that facility about the lack of accessibility (and lack of accessible toilets).

And yes, I would also never discuss make up /lipstick in the toilets. It is an indication of unwanted attention. Just like clothes.

I also don’t strike up conversations with people on the tube. I might make offhand remarks about the heat, or about it being crowded as an acknowledgement that we are all very close together, or maybe if I saw the same person everyday, but striking up conversations with random strangers? No. Not in the UK.

[quote 5zeds]@Mamapep I can’t see why the experience of those on this thread is unworthy of consideration. I’m female and ancient so I expect I’ve used a fair few ladies toilets in all sorts of countries and settings too. It’s all fairly ridiculous anyway. I don’t want trans women to use female toilets (or any female spaces), I’d like them to use the toilets that reflect their sex. I honestly don’t see what the problem is with that. I understand they WANT to use female toilets etc but the answer for me is “no” and I sincerely doubt that there are many more inconvenienced by that than me as the carer of a young man who needs one to one support. Sometimes life is inconvenient and not everyone gets to do what they want.[/quote]
The experiences of those on this thread are worthy of consideration. I’ve only been responding to the idea that women don’t talk to eachother in public toilets.

Just coming back to this. Of course it happens - women do sometimes compliment each other in the bathroom - but generally I'd say it's an unusual way for mature women (in their thirties rather than their teens, as most transgender people who identify as women tend to be) to behave. Nothing wrong with it, just unusual.

The paper towel thing I still think is downright odd.

Also I notice the hypocrisy of Catharina bringing in female criminals and female in female violence while refusing to talk about male criminals and the fact transitioned males don’t seem to have any decrease in committing sex crime.

So very hypocritical to shame women discussing the fact of male sex crime and the continued prevalence of transitioned males committing it while trying to amplify and exaggerate female violence.

And that utopian ‘focus on fixing male behaviour’ like we have not been attempting to do that for the past century and yet it is just as bad as ever. Only now, Catharina fully believes that no transitioned male will ever commit a sex crime. And refuses to discuss male criminality….. while happily Whatabouting with female violence.

All while actively pressurising other women to accept any male who is ‘comfortable’ as a women into female single sex spaces.

I wonder if Catherina can see this blind spot and then understands what that blind spot actually shows others.

Another point.
Catherina said: if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated. If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

So surely, if you put transwomen into segregated vulnerable prisoner spaces, or move them into the women's estate instead, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to transwoman-on-transwoman violence).

if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated. If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence)

.Provide cubicles, work on prison reform (prevent crime), provide better hospital facilities, provide 1 on 1 counselling, don't socialise men as "boys will be boys" naturally violent offenders.

Why not do all those things, and also respect the privacy and dignity of women, and apply the most appropriate safeguarding for female prisoners, which is to have no males?

'if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated. If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).'

What a load of rubbish. How many years has the onus been on men to 'be better'? Answer: all of the years. Every single one of the years. We need sex-segregated spaces sometimes. That is all.

The inconsistencies in Catharina’s posts are enlightening though. Because they absolutely show that Catharina has little regard for making life better for women, but will pretzel their thinking to make life better for males.

But there are inconsistencies and they are very plain to see on this thread.

I also don’t strike up conversations with people on the tube. I might make offhand remarks about the heat, or about it being crowded as an acknowledgement that we are all very close together, or maybe if I saw the same person everyday, but striking up conversations with random strangers? No. Not in the UK.
In the WHOLE of the UK? Ever?
Life is very black and white for some people. I'm also in the UK (in That London, no less) and have both struck up conversations with people on the tube and had people strike up conversations with me. It has never yet ended in affront, affray or fisticuffs. It is also not that unusual, in my UK that presumably runs parallel to some of yours, to see other people having conversations with strangers on public transport.

Apparently random compliments about hair and make up are park of what makes us women.

I'm in my 50s, my DD is in her 20s and i have often received and been given compliments on anything from hair to nails to shoes (not always heels, sometimes docs or whatever) in a range of places including a supermarket toilet. DD and her friends, and it seems the wider generation of millenials do often complement each other on things, in all sorts of places including (from the last 2 weeks out with her): trains, bars, the street, a bus queue, a shop (not clothes), a shop (clothes), a cafe and a pub toilet. They often step out of their way to say "i really like your outfit/hair/lipstick" and i actually think it's great, it really gives both of them a lift.

My personal worry isn't transwomen in the toilets. My worry is that abusive men who want to get into women's spaces (toilets, changing rooms etc) have an open goal in legislation that says "anyone can state their identity and everyone else must accept it". That is not to say there aren't transwomen who will find this a lot easier. I just believe that if you have to work a little at getting a GRC it puts off the spontaneous idiots who would go in the ladies for a laugh without making any alteration to their appearance and when challenged have a perfectly legal defense of "but i AM a woman". I'm not sure how i feel about the hoops transwomen (and men) had/have to jump through at the moment to get a GRC but it does involve some effort to "live in the gender" for 2 years (IIRC). I can quite well believe that having to do this for 2 years seems onerous to someone who have finally accepted that they are transgender and not losing their mind, but i prefer that to a sudden change which can have serious repurcussions for everyone.

It is very difficult, however, to accept that this legislation will basically imprison some women, who have fought long and hard to be allowed to mix with other women, because their culture/religion/controlling family now won't allow them out on the offchance they share a space with a transwoman. That is unacceptable. Making women who don't have those restrictions uncomfortable is also unacceptable, tbh, and i would prefer sex segrated fcilities as well as gender free ones.

One thing that really fucking boils my piss though. Is being in a long freaking queue for the ladies which is populated with boys who are old enough to go to the toilet by themselves. As soon as they can unzip, pee, shake, zip up and wash their hands they should go in the men's. I reserve my especial ire for those boys in the ever increasing long queue for the ladies whose dads then come and stand chatting while they wait having whizzed in and out of the men's toilet which has a tiny line (pun intended)

So all in all I'm conflicted. People going in, using the facilities, and going out again - not much problem. Including men (eg at a Rush or neil Young gig where the audience is 90% men). Opportunists who might use current thinking to harass women in their spaces? get in the sea.

@DameHelena

I also don’t strike up conversations with people on the tube. I might make offhand remarks about the heat, or about it being crowded as an acknowledgement that we are all very close together, or maybe if I saw the same person everyday, but striking up conversations with random strangers? No. Not in the UK. In the WHOLE of the UK? Ever? Life is very black and white for some people. I'm also in the UK (in That London, no less) and have both struck up conversations with people on the tube and had people strike up conversations with me. It has never yet ended in affront, affray or fisticuffs. It is also not that unusual, in my UK that presumably runs parallel to some of yours, to see other people having conversations with strangers on public transport.

Agreed. It isn't that unusual.