‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

[DameHelena]

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

On reflection, I realise in loos that I purposely give other women as much space and privacy as possible and they have always done the same to me. It's like an etiquette that it's fine to chat with a friend or family member when using the loo, fine to point out if something is broken/missing to help other women, but the loos are ultimately about going to the loo, changing sanitary items, hand washing.

No head tilting, fake chat, or swirling of skirts needed!

Ha.

Something tells me that Catherina knows very well what a man is.

@DrSbaitso

If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

Did you just argue that a) women attack women at anything like the rate that men attack women and b) women should be forced into spaces with men to create an "onus" on men not to attack them?

We're in such a deranged brave new world right now that I can't actually be certain that you're not trolling. I think you are, especially with the carefully crafted feminine name, but I actually can't be sure. There are so many earnest lunatics right now who wouldn't be.

All I can say is, no wonder Putin weaponised you guys. I don't know what took him so long.

Yeah. I mean surely by that logic convicted pedophiles should do community service at primary schools. Otherwise it takes the onus off them to be better. And anyway there’s always the risk of child on child violence so why bother with any safeguarding anyway really.

I have a provisional answer to Terfydactyl's question.

A man is an adult human being whose safety and sense of security matter when they come into conflict with male human beings.

Catherina also seemed to be suggesting that we should force women into spaces with men to reduce the risk of women attacking each other (ripping off each other's clothes while pulling each other's hair and covered in foam too, eh, Catherina?).

I'm going to go into the penguin enclosure at the zoo tomorrow. Can someone send in the lions so I'm less likely to be eaten by penguins?

Actually, make it the shark. Then sweet Catherina can jump it.

@DrSbaitso

Ha.

Something tells me that Catherina knows very well what a man is.

indeed. she’ll be too busy admiring herself for her woke qualities to come back to the thread I’m sure

How sad. @CatherinaJTV left before bothering to tell us what 'feeling comfortable as a woman,' means. This seemed to be the bedrock of her argument therefore she has rendered the rest of her thoughts meaningless by failing to provide analysis definition which would allow anyone to understand what she's talking about.

Is that feeling comfortable as a woman, or feeling comfortable throwing women under a bus. Hard to tell sometimes.

When the toilets thing was mentioned, I did immediately think bar, clubs, party, weddings (I’ve been to weddings where I don’t know anyone except the couple, and also huge weddings with 500+ guests). All spaces where people are dressed up. I don’t think complimenting people in these spaces is unusual

I wouldn’t compliment someone wearing casual clothes, or in a coffee shop toilets, because why would you? But there’s plenty of bathroom-mirror-situations-involving-strangers where I would

Same here.

Do you ask strange people to pass you things in toilets too?

31% of female offenders spent time in care as children

In fact, children in care have a higher chance of going to prison than they do to university. I hope I do not have to remind women on mumsnet of the repeated care home scandals, where children in care were targeted for abuse by paedophiles? Unsurprisingly, such experiences affect your GCSE results. And then those little girls, survivors of child abuse who've ended up in prison, are offered up on a platter to abusers as adults. And women call themselves progressive for doing so.

There's nothing progressive about it. Othering women from a lower/more marginalised social class (usually the servants and serving girls) and then assigning them as an approved sacrifice for the urges of rapists and abusers of your own social class, so that they'll leave you/your own daughters alone is very traditional, actually.

@5zeds

Do you ask strange people to pass you things in toilets too?

No.

@5zeds

Do you ask strange people to pass you things in toilets too?

No. I've already said that, but the determination that because some posters on here have never given or received a compliment from a stranger on what they are wearing means it NEVER happens, is tedious.

In case you can't see that image, it says 53% of women in prison experienced child abuse.

84% of them are there for non-violent crime.

What have they done to deserve being locked in with male prisoners?

I think it was never received a complement on their clothes/makeup from a random in a toilet. What do you want them to do lie and say they have?

Women aren't all one smiling being with lipstick, styled hair and socially 'fashionable' clothes. We are unique and while some may like compliments, others may feel unnerved by sudden feedback on our appearance. If someone gave me feedback I would likely give them an odd look, as I dress for me and not to comply or seek a rating.

Funnily enough it's men who rate women isn't it?

So it makes sense if a person commenting in women's loos on other women turns out to be a man.

@CatherinaJTV

I am off to have my tea - have a lovely evening all!

@KimikosNightmare

I don’t think anyone is saying they’ve NEVER had a compliment on what they’re wearing. They’re saying they’ve never swapped compliments on beautiful shoes and lipstick shades with a stranger in a public toilet after asking them to pass you paper towels.

Many posters have said that they’ve of course had and given compliments in appropriate situations, but have never had an unknown woman stop them in a public toilet to say ‘what a beautiful lipstick shade’ or ‘what a wonderful outfit.’ And they’ve never stood with wet hands in a public toilet and said ‘please pass me a paper towel fellow woman.’

People don’t really want to engage with that but that’s what people are saying. Nobody’s saying they’ve never had a compliment before.

@CatherinaJTV it's not abnormal here in NI to chat in toilets or occasionally compliment something, (particularly on an evening out, but also church, fair, school function etc), although I know we're sometimes chattier the other regions.

I think it's a bit crazy how you've been jumped on, irrespective of your sex- the scenario doesn't happen ime in a fawning way, maybe just many of us are used to chit chat, I don't know.

Most people I know would still be uncomfortable with a male in the ladies toilets. Transman, not an issue. Because biological sex matters.

@5zeds

I think it was never received a complement on their clothes/makeup from a random in a toilet. What do you want them to do lie and say they have?

Do you want other women to pretend it isn’t something they’ve experienced?

Far from it but it seems quite a niche experience reading the thread.

if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated. If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

Provide cubicles, work on prison reform (prevent crime), provide better hospital facilities, provide 1 on 1 counselling, don't socialise men as "boys will be boys" naturally violent offenders.

Ah men learning to be better whilst raping, sexually abusing and being violent to women, what is the number of women and girls you think will be acceptable collateral damage in this experiment @CatherinaJTV?

@5zeds

Far from it but it seems quite a niche experience reading the thread.

You shouldn’t form your understanding on the experiences of others from mn threads.

@CatherinaJTV

Gender is only a social construct. It is not a hard, biological fact.

yet, I keep getting misgendered for communicating like a man on a gender critical board.

You are conveniently ignoring the rest of my post - that gender is made up.

It doesn’t actually exist.

Sex exists.

Sexuality exists.

This board was titled by MN. The name does not necessarily reflect the opinions of posters.

A woman is an adult human female.

A transwoman is a transwoman.

They are not part of the same subset, because they are different sexes. And always will be. Because you cannot change sex.