‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

[DameHelena]

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

advocating for something which puts other women at greater risk of rape does not make you a good person

Catherina seemed to think asking us what we had in common with incarcerated women was some huge gotcha that would make us upset and uncomfortable. I infer from this that it offends her to think of them as people she has anything in common with.

Therefore it's probably easy for her to have zero empathy for them. Maybe they're unwomen to her?

The onus is on her to deal with this character flaw, not on incarcerated women to suffer rape as a penalty so Catherina can flatter herself that she is an inclusive, progressive person.

I think some trans women HAVE been using womens’ spaces for years and doing so quietly and respectfully and we have all learned from this.
However what I will not condone is my very being as a woman being taken away and my woman’s voice silenced and ridiculed.
I get no opportunity to understand their agenda or debate their actions because they shut down any attempt at dialogue. I can only assume that their entire agenda is to silence women and take away our opportunities and what little power we have. Shame on them.

I think toilets in a supermarket or McDonald’s is more what people were describing but at a wedding surely you are already connected to the other person and given their choices probably know of them in particular. It’s not quite the same thing. I’ve never asked anyone to pass me a paper towel (though it did happen in a movie about women computers at nasa so perhaps whoever brought it up has been swotting up on toilet controversy?).

now we know they can claim to be us and entire our spaces with a full lunchbox thats an entirely different kettle of jizz now isnt it.

Exactly. But we still were not asked.

I'm not worried about sharing with transwoman, I'm worried about sharing with men. Transwoman think they will be safe in women's spaces but they are fearful of men, who are now allowed into women's spaces.

People go to prison for cruelty to animals sometimes.

Would anyone here advocate that a man in prison for raping sheep, or for torturing cats, be given free access to the prison farm, because the onus was on him to show he'd changed?

@5zeds

I think toilets in a supermarket or McDonald’s is more what people were describing but at a wedding surely you are already connected to the other person and given their choices probably know of them in particular. It’s not quite the same thing. I’ve never asked anyone to pass me a paper towel (though it did happen in a movie about women computers at nasa so perhaps whoever brought it up has been swotting up on toilet controversy?).

Sorry, missed the bit where it specified McDonalds.

@DomesticatedZombie

If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better

Women are obliged to accept increased risk in order to encourage men to be nicer people? Like we are useful object lessons in how not to be a rapist?

It's just fucking unbelievable isn't it?

Let's just shove everyone into one space and see what happens!
It'll be fun!

No, sorry. I'm sure all the men in for violent rapes, sexual assaults and battery, child pornography, paedophilia and domestic violence will IMMEDIATELY modify their behaviour when presented with a female inmate to share a prison with.
Hell, in fact, let's make them share CELLS. There's no way a crime will happen.
Jesus, I thought I'd seen it all here.
Every day is a school day on Mumsnet.

Or a department store or Starbucks…sorry I thought you’d be able to extrapolate. My bad.

Well, I've just got back from eating my tea...

we are not talking about men or criminals. We are talking about women (trans and not trans).
Catherina must know that transwomen offend at the same rate as (other) men.

And my comments about how rights are sometimes like pie got me lots of waffle about her lesbian massage therapist, and no substantive answers abut sport or prisons.

I didn't get an answer to my question about why would let people into the ladies' loos if they of the bodily sex that can wank into the sink.

It's not like I keep score or anything...

If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better
Bloody hell, I missed that one.

These chatbots are getting very good, but sometimes they really do slip up badly...

@5zeds

Or a department store or Starbucks…sorry I thought you’d be able to extrapolate. My bad.

@5zeds

I literally gave an example of a public space that wasn’t a wedding.

Nobody really thinks the answer to safety for women is to remove sex segregated spaces, except MRAs who think men are hard done by.

Catherina's solution seems to be 'do feminism, as you've been doing for many many years, except that bit'.

Been using women's toilets for years (I'm over 70) and never seen anyone there I thought might be a man.

I've given you my answer. I am sorry if that doesn't convince you

So because you and others cant convince us that men are women, I'm not prepared to give up my very few single sex spaces.

You sure with the millions of words in over 7000 languages you can't find a better definition of woman than "feel most comfortable as"

Ok let's change the question, what is a man?

@Terfydactyl

I've given you my answer. I am sorry if that doesn't convince you

So because you and others cant convince us that men are women, I'm not prepared to give up my very few single sex spaces.

You sure with the millions of words in over 7000 languages you can't find a better definition of woman than "feel most comfortable as"

Ok let's change the question, what is a man?

Don't waste your time. You won't get any further than "anyone who feels like/says they are /is comfortable as/ a man".

And THAT'S when we are supposed to go "Oh ok then. Come on in".

Men are non-women . Or non-trans men. If they identify as the sex they are born in they are CIS men, yadda fucking yadda bollocks to infinity.

@Mamapep yes sorry you also mentioned trying on clothes at a vintage clothes fair. I think it would be more normal in a place where people were trying an outfit and coming out into a common space to look at it. That’s not really the same as a big standard () public toilet though is it? I find it weird that it’s happening only to a very small number of the women posting and the rest are frankly shocked that they’ve never witnessed this toilet chatter.

If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

Did you just argue that a) women attack women at anything like the rate that men attack women and b) women should be forced into spaces with men to create an "onus" on men not to attack them?

We're in such a deranged brave new world right now that I can't actually be certain that you're not trolling. I think you are, especially with the carefully crafted feminine name, but I actually can't be sure. There are so many earnest lunatics right now who wouldn't be.

All I can say is, no wonder Putin weaponised you guys. I don't know what took him so long.

es, I understand that that's your reasoning, but I don't buy that, sorry.

Since it's not in your gift to hand over female people's rights it doesn't really matter if you buy it or not.

If you as a female person consent to using mixed sex spaces then that's your body, your decision, your consent, go to it.

While we have female people who cannot access mixed sex spaces, there are going to have to be single sex spaces for them and the job is for everyone else to realise that equality, inclusion and tolerance for others applies to everyone and not just to their mates.

I just feel the urge to say no one has ever complemented me on my lipstick whom I either didnt know or was male.

and its certainly never happened in a toilet that would be weird as fuck, the only conversations I have had in toilets go along the lines of "the locks broken", "theres no bog roll in there", "none of the dryers work" etc.

and no one ever anywhere has asked me if I have spare sanitary products, thats a very odd request to make.

I have complemented people on their nails but only sales assistants during a transaction, I would never randomly say it to someone I have no reason to interact with no matter how nice their nails are, that'll just be odd.

Maybe we both choose rubbish lipsticks.

Must try harder

@Kanaloa

I’ve genuinely only ever been asked things like ‘where did you get your shoes?’ By people I already know. Like if I’m dressed up for a party, a friend might say ‘your hair is gorgeous’ or ‘where did you get this dress?’ Because it’s sort of expected as they know I’ve dressed up. I might say similar back.

I’ve never ever had a stranger ask me anything like that, and if someone in a public toilet asked what lipstick shade I was wearing I’d think they were a bit odd or sort of creepy to be honest.

TBH I once got stopped in the street by a policeman who asked me about my boots and got his notebook out to write down the details of make and shop.

I was wearing some well polished Grafters army style boots with steel toe and shank.

and a few blokes at work endlessly admired my trainers and kept asking about my puma, vans etc.

does that count I dont think I have ever had a woman say anything about my shoes.

most violence in prisons is nt woman on nt woman
You could just say "women" or "transwomen"
We are women not "not trans women"
We already have a word for us, no need to rectify.

In my younger days I was (occasionally) complimented on my hair and clothes but to the best of my recollection never while in the loo. Likewise I have commented on someone's dress/shoes/ other aspect of their appearance but not while in the toilet. But I'm not very good at 'womaning' because I drink beer and like football so I've probably been doing it wrong all these years.

@DrSbaitso

If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

Did you just argue that a) women attack women at anything like the rate that men attack women and b) women should be forced into spaces with men to create an "onus" on men not to attack them?

We're in such a deranged brave new world right now that I can't actually be certain that you're not trolling. I think you are, especially with the carefully crafted feminine name, but I actually can't be sure. There are so many earnest lunatics right now who wouldn't be.

All I can say is, no wonder Putin weaponised you guys. I don't know what took him so long.

Just this week, Catherina reacted to a(n autistic) man shouting at a male transitioner (for using the women's toilets at an LGB Alliance conference where it was established that the toilets were separated by sex) by saying he shouldn't be allowed out in public. (Catherina then explained she hadn't known the man was autistic.)

So if male transitioners/transwomen are involved, it is acceptable to prevent men who might shout at them sharing their space. There was zero concern that separating shouting man from society would take the onus off shouting man to be better.

But if we separate male convicts (including males convicted of sexual offences) from female victims, we're taking the onus away from the male convicts to do better?

Something a bit odd here...

[quote 5zeds]@Mamapep yes sorry you also mentioned trying on clothes at a vintage clothes fair. I think it would be more normal in a place where people were trying an outfit and coming out into a common space to look at it. That’s not really the same as a big standard () public toilet though is it? I find it weird that it’s happening only to a very small number of the women posting and the rest are frankly shocked that they’ve never witnessed this toilet chatter.[/quote]
When the toilets thing was mentioned, I did immediately think bar, clubs, party, weddings (I’ve been to weddings where I don’t know anyone except the couple, and also huge weddings with 500+ guests). All spaces where people are dressed up. I don’t think complimenting people in these spaces is unusual.

I wouldn’t compliment someone wearing casual clothes, or in a coffee shop toilets, because why would you? But there’s plenty of bathroom-mirror-situations-involving-strangers where I would.