‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

[DameHelena]

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

I do not see why, for example, this number of incidents in the women's estate justifies us throwing up our hands and saying "can't eliminate it entirely, so we'll ditch our rules put in place to limit sexual violence".

Do you have this approach to money? "Went over budget by £5, so I might as well get into debt by £350"?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

did I say that? No

so with that in mind, has the reason you gave for single sex spaces ('Because for centuries, we have found it easier to put women away rather than teach the men not to rape') gone away?

if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated. If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

Provide cubicles, work on prison reform (prevent crime), provide better hospital facilities, provide 1 on 1 counselling, don't socialise men as "boys will be boys" naturally violent offenders.

[quote Enough4me]@Mamapep if a female member of your family received feedback on her appearance by a man in the women's loos, would you think that nice or creepy, honestly hand on heart?[/quote]
If the female family member found it creepy, I’d find it creepy. If she didn’t, why would I?

@Artichokeleaves

My answer as always:

what are we going to do with all the female people who cannot use female single sex spaces provided for them, because male people wish to be included on the grounds of their gender identity and wish to have a choice and alternative to their existing sex based space?

To head off the inevitable:

• yes these female people do exist, denial won't disappear them

• many of these female people have protected characteristics too and are covered by the EqAc2010 which has 9 characteristics, not 1, and there is not a hierarchy

• these female people are taxpayers and equally entitled to spaces, resources and facilities as male people are

• it is obviously sexist to the point of male supremacy to say that some females must lose access to everything so that male people can take their preferred choice from everything, hence unacceptable

• inclusion applies to female people too

• no, you can't refuse female people equality, inclusion and access on the grounds that you don't like their culture/belief/disability/needs/lived experience/ and see this as acceptable grounds for intolerance and refusal to understand the idea of intersectionality.

So what are we going to do with these females?

Gulags?

What arti said.

I've been asking this question for years & nobody on the TRA side will ever answer it beyond a moronic 'yeah, well, religions shouldn't be like that/traumatised women just need to get over themselves/yeah, but transwomen are the most oppressed of all'.

Until someone can answer this question rationally & compassionately, with an equal regard for all people, we really can't move forward.

I am off to have my tea - have a lovely evening all!

(plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

No, I'm sorry, this is risible logic. Including males in single sex spaces will mitigate the vanishingly tine risk of WoW violence how?

*tiny. I imagine forks are largely irrelevant.

if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated. If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

Taking the onus off?

My mother was not an object who existed to measure character development in male prisoners.

How about we give male prisoners (in for fraud, maybe) access to your online banking on a tablet? I mean, to do otherwise would take away the onus on them to do better.

if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated.

the safest spaces for women exclude men (regardless of how they identify)

If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

mm, but while you're working towards utopia, some women will be raped because you've let men into single sex spaces. you good with that?

Provide cubicles, work on prison reform (prevent crime), provide better hospital facilities, provide 1 on 1 counselling, don't socialise men as "boys will be boys" naturally violent offenders.

why do we need to give up single sex spaces first? you seem to be taking a cavalier approach to other women's safety

@CatherinaJTV

I am off to have my tea - have a lovely evening all!

and thus the circle of life continues

may I recommend ibuprofen for that cognitive dissonance induced headache @CatherinaJTV ?

advocating for something which puts other women at greater risk of rape does not make you a good person

@Shesellseashells82

Think I must be living in a bubble!! How often are you all encountering men claiming to be trans to enter in women’s spaces? I mean - in your real every day life - in the Costa loos, your leisure centre changing rooms? Is this something that’s happening to you all every day, or more like weekly / monthly? Trying to get a sense of the scale as I live in a really diverse liberal city and I’ve never seen this first hand myself.

I've never seen a murder, an overt act of racism or a rape taking place but that doesn't mean because I've personally failed to witness these acts I should be accepting of them and say "well I've never witnessed it so you are all over exaggerating". Silly women, making a problem where there isn't one. Back to discussing lipstick and hairstyles and keeping out mouths shut in case we offend the men in dresses 🙄

A man using a woman only space once and making women feel uncomfortable is one more time than is acceptable.

'if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated. If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).'

Ah, those tired old TRA arguments which have been disproven time after time.

1. Segregated is not a bad word in the UK. Americans like to use it for emotional effect, but that doesn't work here.

1. Sex-segregated/single-sex facilities are statistically the safest for women.

1. There's nothing wrong with dealing with here-and-now reality instead of airy fairy nonsense about teaching men to be better by destroying single-sex facilities.

1. What WoW violence? How would male or female violence be mitigated by allowing males into female facilities?

provide single sex spaces for them?

Female prisons are supposed to be single sex but male prisoners are at present sent there if they say they are women.
So you obviously agree that no prisoners of the male sex no matter their gender identity should be in female prisons? Good to know.

@CatherinaJTV

I am off to have my tea - have a lovely evening all!

How nice for you. Women incarcerated in prison can't leave awkward conversations with the same ease, can they?

Have you ever worked in retail, Catherina? Did you notice that not everyone is given access to the saferoom?

Surely they should let all employees (almost none of whom will have criminal records because supermarkets don't like employing people with those) have access, because otherwise it's removing the onus from employees not to steal?

Yet, they don't. Because it would be taking a risk with their money. They won't take that risk even if everyone has a clean criminal record. I bet you don't even leave your own money unattended.

So how dare you offer up other people to males convicted of violent offences? Their bodies are not yours.

Why are women worth less than money? Less than the profits at the end of one working day in an urban supermarket?

So women only spaces should become mixed spaces and the women that can't used mixed spaces should use single sex spaces? But women are women and some men (based on intangible feelz) so should be let into to women's spaces but the women who don't want them in their spaces can use single sex space, but there aren't any single sex spaces because some men are women? I glad we've cleared that up, what was all the fuss about?

Oh look.
It's actually very disappointing when the drive-by scolding, though very predictable, ends without any resolution or concrete definitions being given (despite being asked again and again).
We get the inevitable "but I've already answered this", or the "I'm leaving now" etc.

It's a great pity.
But sort of funny.

The house of cards collapses under the weight of its own ridiculousness.

@Artichokeleaves

My answer as always:

what are we going to do with all the female people who cannot use female single sex spaces provided for them, because male people wish to be included on the grounds of their gender identity and wish to have a choice and alternative to their existing sex based space?

To head off the inevitable:

• yes these female people do exist, denial won't disappear them

• many of these female people have protected characteristics too and are covered by the EqAc2010 which has 9 characteristics, not 1, and there is not a hierarchy

• these female people are taxpayers and equally entitled to spaces, resources and facilities as male people are

• it is obviously sexist to the point of male supremacy to say that some females must lose access to everything so that male people can take their preferred choice from everything, hence unacceptable

• inclusion applies to female people too

• no, you can't refuse female people equality, inclusion and access on the grounds that you don't like their culture/belief/disability/needs/lived experience/ and see this as acceptable grounds for intolerance and refusal to understand the idea of intersectionality.

So what are we going to do with these females?

Gulags?

Thank you for summing this up so well.

@Lovelyricepudding

No transwoman has ever used female single sex spaces. The most they can ever do is destroy female single sex spaces by making them mixed sex. And when they do this women in that space always change their behaviour: averting eyes, exiting as fast as they feel.they can without drawing attention to themselves, or trying to lessen the risk by appearing friendly. Women always change their behaviour when transwomen enter a women's space and make it mixed sex.

This is very true - good point! They've never used a woman's single sex space as they've automatically made it mixed sex by being there

@TheCurrywurstPrion

I k now several trans young people (both mtf and ftm) every single one has had mental trauma in their lives, mostly a combination or the acrimonious divorce of parents and mental health issues , also alcoholic parent(s), death of parent at puberty. Oh and religious zealots for parents (the only non divorced parents) who believe god will strike down gay people, police and social services had to get involved in that one.

I'm not saying there's no trans in loving 2 parent family homes but I personally see a trend

@MrsOvertonsWindow

It's funny how some posters always out themselves as not who they claim to be with their fantasies about how women live our lives.

And just like everyone else, I've never had a conversation with a random woman in a toilet about hair, make up, clothing and certainly never asked them to pass me a towel.

You’ve never made eye contact with a person in the loos at a party or wedding and smiled and said ‘I love your dress, really suits you’? If I liked someone’s dress I would say this without a second thought.

I was trying on a dress in the toilets at a vintage fair (no ‘real’ changing rooms just loo cubicles), came out to look at it in the mirror and a random woman said ‘ah, that dress was made for you.’ Which convinced me even more to buy it.

I didn’t think this exchange was unusual, just casually friendly. Also if this is a male fantasy, it’s pretty fucking vanilla

Hopefully Christina will be back after her tea.

Er no! Only to a friend.

We have all seen TW use their sex related ability against women as reported in the media.

For example, Will Thomas was and still is an average male swimmer. He beats women.

Karen White was and still is a male rapist.

These men and their lies are known, @CatherinaJTV why not think of the women who are negatively impacted by male sex advantage as you enjoy your tea?

If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better

Women are obliged to accept increased risk in order to encourage men to be nicer people? Like we are useful object lessons in how not to be a rapist?

@CatherinaJTV

I am off to have my tea - have a lovely evening all!

Sadly, when people say this - & it only ever seems to be people on the other side of this argument - they usually (a) carry on reading obsessively & (b) come back a few minutes later & (c) flounce off again.