‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

[DameHelena]

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

we are not talking about men or criminals. We are talking about women (trans and not trans).

Oh! another squirrel!

do you understand why we have single sex spaces @CatherinaJTV ?

Because for centuries, we have found it easier to put women away rather than teach the men not to rape?

Because for centuries, we have found it easier to put women away rather than teach the men not to rape?

have men been taught not to rape now?

were there zero rapes last year?

@334bu

* I got asked whether I would let m kids spend a holiday with their G/L aunt or uncle. It is precisely because I see the similarity that I just cannot muster anti-trans panic.*

Big difference between that and for example, forcing female prisoners to share showers with male prisoners who identify as women. Complaining about male prisoners, some of whom are convicted of sex offences against women and children in female prisons is not " anti-trans" panic

no, that is called "unsafe prisons" and needs urgent reform - most violence in prisons is nt woman on nt woman. We must keep everyone in prison safe.

I don't accept your sex denialism which necessarily denies sex as a basis of oppression. And I'm not sorry for that. It's bullshit.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Because for centuries, we have found it easier to put women away rather than teach the men not to rape?

have men been taught not to rape now?

were there zero rapes last year?

Oh, really?! Amazing! Fantastic. And all it took was removing single sex spaces, you say? Wow. We should have thought of that earlier.

At what point does a man become a transwoman and a subset of women @CatherinaJTV?

most violence in prisons is nt woman on nt woman

cor, these squirrels are coming thick and fast aren't they?

@aylis

I don't accept your sex denialism which necessarily denies sex as a basis of oppression. And I'm not sorry for that. It's bullshit.

ah, we've been there. My sex is not the basis for my oppression. The basis for my oppression is the belief system that certain sex-associated characteristics are inferior to others.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

most violence in prisons is nt woman on nt woman

cor, these squirrels are coming thick and fast aren't they?

if squirrel = facts

@Clymene

At what point does a man become a transwoman and a subset of women *@CatherinaJTV*?

you'd have to ask them that.

about the zero rapes @CatherinaJTV ? rape has been completely done away with now then?

Sorry, what’s a ‘nt woman’ @CatherinaJTV?

if squirrel = facts

most violence in prisons is committed by men on men. what with men being 95% of the prison population

now, rape. cured yes?

Sex is an axis of oppression. It doesn't matter how you try to adjust it to make it more palatable to put men in women's spaces. Men as women is literally part of the 'belief system' that is laid over sex (ie - gender) in order to oppress women.

My answer as always:

what are we going to do with all the female people who cannot use female single sex spaces provided for them, because male people wish to be included on the grounds of their gender identity and wish to have a choice and alternative to their existing sex based space?

To head off the inevitable:

• yes these female people do exist, denial won't disappear them

• many of these female people have protected characteristics too and are covered by the EqAc2010 which has 9 characteristics, not 1, and there is not a hierarchy

• these female people are taxpayers and equally entitled to spaces, resources and facilities as male people are

• it is obviously sexist to the point of male supremacy to say that some females must lose access to everything so that male people can take their preferred choice from everything, hence unacceptable

• inclusion applies to female people too

• no, you can't refuse female people equality, inclusion and access on the grounds that you don't like their culture/belief/disability/needs/lived experience/ and see this as acceptable grounds for intolerance and refusal to understand the idea of intersectionality.

So what are we going to do with these females?

Gulags?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Because for centuries, we have found it easier to put women away rather than teach the men not to rape?

have men been taught not to rape now?

were there zero rapes last year?

did I say that? No.

@LabMix

Sorry, what’s a ‘nt woman’ *@CatherinaJTV*?

not trans - my attempt not to say cis

""we are not talking about men or criminals. We are talking about women (trans and not trans).""

There are NO "not trans" women. Those are called women.
And you ARE talking about men, because you are talking about trans women.
And those are men.

Woman (trans and not trans) makes no sense whatsoever.
Men do not belong in the category of women.
Even when you put in in parentheses.

And excuse me, but did you just say you "don't buy" that males are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violent sexual assaults? Is that what you meant?
Because that is a statistical FACT.

did I say that? No

so with that in mind, has the reason you gave for single sex spaces ('Because for centuries, we have found it easier to put women away rather than teach the men not to rape') gone away?

what are we going to do with all the female people who cannot use female single sex spaces provided for them, because male people wish to be included on the grounds of their gender identity and wish to have a choice and alternative to their existing sex based space?

provide single sex spaces for them?

@CatherinaJTV or you could just call them ‘women’ ffs. ‘Biological women’ if you really can’t cope with the fact that only born females are women

provide single sex spaces for them?

how are we deciding who the 'women's' single sex spaces are for @CatherinaJTV ?

I am really not that smart. but having this conversation is giving me a little taste of what it feels like to be Ben Cooper.

@CatherinaJTV

what are we going to do with all the female people who cannot use female single sex spaces provided for them, because male people wish to be included on the grounds of their gender identity and wish to have a choice and alternative to their existing sex based space?

provide single sex spaces for them?

And what happens when transwomen want to be included in those spaces as well?

We already HAVE what are supposed to be single sex spaces.
As you know.

You really have to be joking with this answer.

provide single sex spaces for them?

That would be nice.

But the current plan seems to be that we have single sex spaces, but everyone can choose their sex, which means in actual fact that some female people have no access.

The obvious answer is third spaces which are mixed sex, and female only spaces in addition, with male people able to respect that some females require female only spaces for inclusion. That's the one bit that's missing.

We currently have the Brighton rape crisis service where male people have three separate choices of which service best meets their needs but there is no service at all for females who can only access a single sex service.

Why is there no accessible service for those female rape victims?

Because male people do not want it to exist.

It's not up to female people to go mending this particular fence. It wasn't them that smashed it down and then jumped up and down on it.