‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

[DameHelena]

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

Because when women or girls challenge men we never know what reaction we will get and fear male violence. We always know when men are using our facilities and we don’t want them there.

of course they have, far longer than the EA2010 - there's a legal website out there that chronicles the legal history of toilet use in work places (can't be arsed to find the link at the moment)

@Monitaurus

Because when women or girls challenge men we never know what reaction we will get and fear male violence. We always know when men are using our facilities and we don’t want them there.

no, because you a) rarely notice and b) they can legally use the ladies

1. trans used to mean transexuals and there were very few so most people would not encounter them. Nowadays it is clear that there are a lot of chancers who just like to frighten women by insisting they're women too.
2. just because they did, doesn't mean women were happy about it. We weren't consulted and we are now saying no.

They might have been but it doesn't mean women didn't notice and didn't mind.

The implication is that TW pass so well that they used our spaces and we never even realised

The reality is, that in years gone by, when trans = transexual and there were far fewer men claiming a trans identity, women clocked an outsider in our spaces and either kept quiet through kindness or fear.

But now it appears that every second male wants in for either dysphoria, power or fetish so not only have the sort of male coming in changed, the numbers have increased. And now women are saying no.

Thanks folks. Zero, your point makes particular sense; I hadn’t thought about that.

So what if they have? It doesn't make it right.

They never asked us if we minded. And I do mind, very much. But would I compromise my safety and confront them? No.

Do they read my lack of confrontation as acceptance? Probably, if they even care what we think.

There's an 8 year old boy who had been using the female change at our swimming pool for months now.
I was too hesitant to confront mum.
Now no girls use that changing room in the morning. Mea culpa. I've fixed this now.
I imagine this is similar.

@NancyDrawed

The implication is that TW pass so well that they used our spaces and we never even realised

The reality is, that in years gone by, when trans = transexual and there were far fewer men claiming a trans identity, women clocked an outsider in our spaces and either kept quiet through kindness or fear.

But now it appears that every second male wants in for either dysphoria, power or fetish so not only have the sort of male coming in changed, the numbers have increased. And now women are saying no.

don't ask don't tell and all that...

Trans used to mean transexual. It also didn't mean women were happy with it. Women weren't asked.

If by "women's spaces" they mean public toilets and changing rooms, and by transwomen they mean people who have made a great deal of effort to try and "pass" then yes that's probably true. But it's irrelevant to the question of whether transwomen should be using women's spaces like refuges, rape crisis centres, hospital wards, prisons and similar. And irrelevant to whether anyone who simply self id's as a woman should be using women's spaces.

Thete are a number of things

1. Part of the treatment fir old school transsexuals was that they were told by doctors they needed to use Women’s spaces. No one asked women of course being as they we’re just passive support humans
2. Most TW do not pass but women are socialised to be kind. In the days when it was a handful of old school transexuais women were generally sympathetic because it was very low numbers plus you know no one ever asked us if we minded anyway
3. For very good reason, women are wary of men being violent. 98% of violent attacks are carried out by men & as we’ve said many times we can’t tell just by looking. Therefore the chances that any women is going to challenge an obvious man in a changing room or a toilet are pretty small becatse we fear male violence both physical & verbal

TLDR men muscles in on womens soaces, no one ducking asked us. We knew they were men & so did they but we were kind and they didn’t take the piss. However, now we’re in a place where men who don’t even make the vaguest change to the appearance indust they are women. They are taking the piss & so now we say no

The reality is that transpeople had to undergo a lot of therapy which included making it quite clear that single sec spaces could legitimately exclude them

That tended to mean they didn't assume . At work we had extra loos created for our translady . She joined some of the women events , but only after asking politely not assuming

The entitlement is very recent

I have never understood why Catherina and others do not respect the fact that women do not want men in our facilities. So male

This is a what transwomen now means.

@CatherinaJTV "don't ask don't tell and all that..." what is this a reference to and what's your point?

My best friend is a transwoman. You'd walk past her in the loos and never even know she's trans. You might even compliment her on her beautiful hair or her outfit or ask where she got her shoes. She might say she loves your lipstick shade. And you'd go on with your day not knowing you'd spoken to a transwoman.

Get. A. Grip.

Not sure that “we’ve been intruding on women’s spaces without their consent for years!” is quite the winning argument gender activists think it is.

Yes we noticed and we knew.

We notice:
Body shape
Face shape
Hand size
Feet size
Voice
Smell

So yeah, we know, and we knew.

Don't kid yerself. It is in the gait, in the length of wristbones, in the hairline.

@RoseslnTheHospital

If by "women's spaces" they mean public toilets and changing rooms, and by transwomen they mean people who have made a great deal of effort to try and "pass" then yes that's probably true. But it's irrelevant to the question of whether transwomen should be using women's spaces like refuges, rape crisis centres, hospital wards, prisons and similar. And irrelevant to whether anyone who simply self id's as a woman should be using women's spaces.

I mean all single-sex spaces and trans women of any appearance. The thread on Twitter I’m on (I know, I should stay away) talks about loos etc.

@VampireMoney and your point is? Only pretty transwomen can use women's spaces? Which of these would you allow in?

People have been stealing hotel towels for years.

Might as well make it legal.

Hmmm how much of this "asking about random womans lipsticknshade" etc really happens in womans loos ? Never happens to me!

Yes, we were kind and accepting weren't we? Strange how that's suddenly changed. What could it possibly be 🤔? What could have changed to make women suddenly sit up and decide to protect their spaces?