Boris has nailed colours to mast

[Ridcully82]

On gender transition at PMQs:" biology overwhelmingly important", preceded by urging respect for those feeling they need to transition. Sounded calm, respectful,and kinda where we were on course before the TRA actions.

Problem is even if Labour do a massive volte face on this now I still wouldn't trust them with my vote.

When they get torn to shreds over it in the election, which they will as the Tories have spotted it as an issue like Brexit and will push it relentlessly, I will have zero sympathy for them.

Labour, as in the last election which was fought and lost over Brexit, are either too stupid, too ideologically captured or just to damn far up their own arses to see the writing on the wall, one would have thought they had learnt that lesson after the 2019 election.

@VestofAbsurdity

Problem is even if Labour do a massive volte face on this now I still wouldn't trust them with my vote.

When they get torn to shreds over it in the election, which they will as the Tories have spotted it as an issue like Brexit and will push it relentlessly, I will have zero sympathy for them.

Labour, as in the last election which was fought and lost over Brexit, are either too stupid, too ideologically captured or just to damn far up their own arses to see the writing on the wall, one would have thought they had learnt that lesson after the 2019 election.

Yes to all of what you've said here. I've always either voted Labour or Green - now can't vote for either. One of my best friends has called me a 'fascist' for saying I won't vote for either of them anymore

Labour is a lost cause. Their stance on this issue shows that they have completely lost the plot.

They could tell me grass was green and I would now have to go outside and check it for myself.

Looks like ole Boris is getting my vote.

Vote Labour and get rid. We can work with labour to change their batshitery on gender

I was thinking maybe I should do that until the ' I refuse to say what a woman' is debacle on Women's Day. I don't think I have ever seen political cowardice reach such heights in my lifetime.

Zelenski is a politician facing death to save his country in mentally, physically torturous conditions.
The politicians in the Labour party are too scared to say what a woman is in case they get called a name.

I have nothing left but contempt for them.

Lifelong Labour voter, would vote Tory in an election if they are the only people saying TW are TW and women are women. Utterly dispirited and betrayed by Labour on this.

'There's no way an intelligent respected QC like Starmer believes that a human actually changes sex, so why is he saying this stuff?'

First he had to redefine the concept in his mind. Somehow he managed to remove 'sex' from genetics and chromosomes, and position it in his mind as relating to external characteristics. 'Getting a sex change' was what we used to call it; he just takes it more literally.

The problem is, I think, if someone performed a 'sex change' on someone else without their consent (under anaesthesia), he wouldn't regard them as having changed sex. He will (I believe) be associating 'sex change' with changing one's body externally to match 'gender identity', and imagining that people really are men or women 'inside', and they change their external sex characteristics to match, thus 'becoming' outside what they always were inside.

I find it very odd that people here are happy to vote for someone who does not support misogyny being made a hate crime.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58800328.amp
Also as an MP, he has always abstained from Westminster votes on abortion.
But this is clearly a man who is to be trusted & deserves women's votes?

'Yes to all of what you've said here. I've always either voted Labour or Green - now can't vote for either. One of my best friends has called me a 'fascist' for saying I won't vote for either of them anymore'

This is the other reason I won't vote for them. Half of them are very extreme in their politics. They don't brook disagreement with some very strange ideas, and the trans debate is just one of them.

'I find it very odd that people here are happy to vote for someone who does not support misogyny being made a hate crime.'

Alternative: we vote for someone who does support misogyny being made a hate crime, then lets women be targeted for 'misogynistic hate crime' for not calling males women.

No thank you.

@tabbycatstripy

'There's no way an intelligent respected QC like Starmer believes that a human actually changes sex, so why is he saying this stuff?'

First he had to redefine the concept in his mind. Somehow he managed to remove 'sex' from genetics and chromosomes, and position it in his mind as relating to external characteristics. 'Getting a sex change' was what we used to call it; he just takes it more literally.

The problem is, I think, if someone performed a 'sex change' on someone else without their consent (under anaesthesia), he wouldn't regard them as having changed sex. He will (I believe) be associating 'sex change' with changing one's body externally to match 'gender identity', and imagining that people really are men or women 'inside', and they change their external sex characteristics to match, thus 'becoming' outside what they always were inside.

You are overthinking this.

The simple truth is that he is prepared to lie to get votes.

And the fact that he probably, like most men, is not that interested in women or our issues probably helps.

If Labour win, they will argue that they have an endorsement for this batshittery. Same as the SNP does. And it's wrong.

I agree.

The Tories have nothing to lose here. Their voters naturally hate anything they see as woke so he can say these things knowing he's playing to his constituents while picking up some feminist votes along the way. Boris himself is a moral vacuum and this is purely political.

The right are right on this, just for all the wrong reasons.

Whitecreambluejug:

I don't believe I am. I don't think Starmer is dishonest, I think he really thinks this clearly untrue thing.

I've only ever voted Labour (and Lib Dem once). I didn't bother voting in the last election because I wouldn't vote Labour due to this issue, but I couldn't bring myself to vote Tory either.

I think this has finally pushed me to vote Tory next time there's an election. I'm in Wales so it probably won't make a bit of difference but I'm finally at that point. I'm now a single-issue voter I'm afraid.

Misogyny could not be made a hate crime at the moment. We have such a toxxic masculinity problem we don't have enough police to enforce it.

Plus a lot of police are guilty of it.

You'd have to absolutely gut it out of all institutions, law before it could be a manageable crime.

But yes, there are some conservative politicians who think men can suffer misogyny.

Still not as stupid as thinking men invading women's spaces are more vulnerable than the women they exclude.

@oldwomanwhoruns

I'm with you, *@purpleboy* . It's a shame that the Women's Equality Party are already down the rabbit hole. Trying to think of a name! Socialist Mums? Real Women?

I wonder how much it costs to set this up & to put up some candidates...

Due to the nature of party politics in the UK it is extremely difficult to do.

Even the third mainstream party the Lib Dems is nowhere close to being in power and hasn't been since the early 1900's.

Look at all those who 'broke away' from their mainstream parties and set up most sunk without a trace or in the case of the Gang of Four from Labour eventually joined with the Liberals.

SNP was/is a success on the basis of a single policy - Scottish Independence and they hit it at the right time.

UKIP was a success in that it shook the system and was dragging votes away from the main parties over one issue but they only ever had one MP in Westminster, parties capitulated (most notably the Tories) to the issue because they wanted their votes back and could only get into power by doing so.

I find it very odd that people here are happy to vote for someone who does not support misogyny being made a hate crime.

Having seen who is vigorously enthusiastic about making misogyny into a hate crime, who is on the committees and their track records, and what they quite openly intend to make misogyny mean and that it will end up being a stick largely to beat and silence women with?

Yeah, I'm very much against that thanks!

The whole hate crime legislation has turned out to be a mess and I don't think any of it should exist, never mind add a whole lot more of it to get more women arrested and punished for expressing things like biological fact and that they'd quite like equality and rights too.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

On the flip side voting Tory just because they will occasionally (when they think its a vote winner) remember that women exist feels like a betrayal of poor and disabled women.

Disabled women are extremely vulnerable to self Id. If self Id comes in they lose their right to a same sex carer, hospital treatment etc.

I

True but its also pretty important they are not living in poverty unable to afford food, heating or electricity. It's also important that they are able to access free treatment on the NHS, and to not have support services funding slashed. Or for those who rely on benefits (in and out of work) to have a welfare state whose default state isn't to treat them as frauds. Or for those in work to have a government who is willing to make companies treat them as equal to their able bodies colleagues (eg. Not paying them less).

I'm not convinced Boris and his cronies give a shiny shit about any of that.

Not do they care about other feminist fights. I suspect some of them think women's suffrage was a bad move.

Voting Tory as a feminist feels very much like wanting to stay with an abuser because he buys flowers sometimes.

@tabbycatstripy

Whitecreambluejug:

I don't believe I am. I don't think Starmer is dishonest, I think he really thinks this clearly untrue thing.

I saw him on the Andrew Marr show. That was not a man who was talking about something he clearly believed. That was a man who had been briefed and was squirming around trying not to upset a lobby group.

There is not way he thinks it is factually wrong to say only women have a cervix. He does think it is politically wrong to say it.

In my fantasy outcome: Labour starts talking sense on this, it wins and it starts showing the rest of the world that you can be a progressive party and still support women. You can allocate sufficient resource to help people struggling with dysphoria but NOT at the expense of fairness and safety for biological women. Gender non-conformity is absolutely fine and to be treasured and nobody needs to be medicalised because of it.

@SantaCarlaCalifornia

I've only ever voted Labour (and Lib Dem once). I didn't bother voting in the last election because I wouldn't vote Labour due to this issue, but I couldn't bring myself to vote Tory either.

I think this has finally pushed me to vote Tory next time there's an election. I'm in Wales so it probably won't make a bit of difference but I'm finally at that point. I'm now a single-issue voter I'm afraid.

Me too - I can't actually believe that I, a card-carrying member of the Labour Party, and lifelong Labour voter, am actually saying this, but I will vote Tory at the next GE.

What a time to be alive !!

We are excited when the PM recognises that women and biology actually matter..... nearly

I won't vote Labour and my conscience is clear if the scumbag Tories win.

Voting Tory as a feminist feels very much like wanting to stay with an abuser because he buys flowers sometimes

Well, if you think women prisoners not being housed with sex offenders, sex abuse victims not having to share accommodation and therapeutic support with men, women not being believed about rape as there was no 'man' there to rape them, women not being able to win at their own sports, if you think all that is equivalent to a bunch of tulips, then I don't think there is anything left to say to you.