Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Boris has nailed colours to mast

613 replies

Ridcully82 · 23/03/2022 12:41

On gender transition at PMQs:" biology overwhelmingly important", preceded by urging respect for those feeling they need to transition. Sounded calm, respectful,and kinda where we were on course before the TRA actions.

OP posts:
MangyInseam · 26/03/2022 22:08

I've written before about why I don't think the Tories are particularly great on upholding women's rights given the open goal Labour have served them but at least they allow their MPs freedom of thought and speech on the topic.

Which is a wider problem with Labour over all. It's not just this issue they will shut people up about - they are very comfortable with shutting down the opinions of their members and MPs.

Nightlystroll · 26/03/2022 23:43

And because the reality is that people will know perfectly well that there is no way that the election would have been won on this issue alone.

If the issue isn't that important, then why criticise Johnson for talking about it? It's obviously not going to affect his chances of winning either. And if it's not going win an election, then it's not going to lose an election. So there's no reason why Starmer can't say what he's really thinking. Therefore you've got to think he is actually stating what he believes - that biology and protection of women's spaces are not important.

EthelTheAardvark · 26/03/2022 23:59

If the issue isn't that important, then why criticise Johnson for talking about it

Because we know from his attitude to women generally that he cares precisely nothing about promoting women's interests, and it is just another example of his utter hypocrisy. And if anyone don't know that, then he is potentially raising hopes for nothing, because for him promises are totally meaningless.

MarshaBradyo · 27/03/2022 07:28

Starmer has made it clear where he and Labour stand, and it’s not something I can vote for. I’m glad others feel as strongly reading pp.

PoisoningPigeons · 27/03/2022 08:46

I absolutely agree that the Tories will say anything at all and will happily lie if they think there are votes in it.

The question is: Will Labour say anything at all and happily lie if they think there are votes in it?

Because if the answer is Yes, then this is not exactly a reason for an undecided voter to choose one set of liars over another set of liars.

And if the answer if No, then this means that Labour genuinely believe that gender overrides sex, that we shouldn't say only women have cervixes, that babies are born without a sex, that gender-critical women should be re-educated and if they won't recant should be expelled from the party.

Kendodd · 27/03/2022 10:45

Which is a wider problem with Labour over all. It's not just this issue they will shut people up about - they are very comfortable with shutting down the opinions of their members and MPs
Really? You think the Tories allow free thinking of their MPs?
Have you not been watching the last few years while Johnson purged his party of any remotely sensible MP and prompted a bunch of 'yes men' willing to endorse every lie he says?

IcakethereforeIam · 27/03/2022 10:54

Keep misreading the title as Boris has nail colours Confused.

MyLittlePhonyPony · 27/03/2022 11:25

@IcakethereforeIam

Keep misreading the title as Boris has nail colours Confused.
I imagine he'd father sage green, steel grey or harlot red.
MyLittlePhonyPony · 27/03/2022 11:25

Favour

juicejuicesteak · 27/03/2022 16:15

All the people who think this is a minority issue, and the electorate will be talking about the economy etc. that's exactly WHY it will become (quite correctly) a big issue come the election. Boris would much rather talk about the lunacy of this, than anything he has measurably failed at.

I'll vote Boris. Can't stand the man, deplore his track record. But if it protects those women labour voters think they have a monopoly on, the poor, the disabled the vulnerable from the proper nasty mens sexual rights in self ID, if the Tories are going to acknowledge that I should have rights, that 'woman' isn't a dress code with properly assigned behaviours/ personalities to fit; then they will get my vote. I'll probably offer to leaflet for them on this issue.

juicejuicesteak · 27/03/2022 16:18

I don't understand the "boris is saying the right thing, but he lies so don't vote for him" versus the "Starmer doesn't believe the lies he's telling so ignore this and vote for him."

Blossomtoes · 27/03/2022 16:22

This is where the Tories put their money where their mouth isn’t.

digitaleditions.telegraph.co.uk/data/895/reader/reader.html?#!preferred/0/package/895/pub/895/page/24/article/276620

Fifteentoes · 27/03/2022 21:32

Teenage boy faints from hunger at London food bank -

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-14-rushed-hospital-after-26563927

On the bright side, at least he wasn't trying to pass himself off as trans.

teawamutu · 27/03/2022 21:47

@Fifteentoes

Teenage boy faints from hunger at London food bank -

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-14-rushed-hospital-after-26563927

On the bright side, at least he wasn't trying to pass himself off as trans.

Sterling bit of whataboutery, there. Screenshotting it for the next time I have to explain the concept to some arsewit on Twitter.
Iwassonaive · 27/03/2022 21:48

@Fifteentoes

Teenage boy faints from hunger at London food bank -

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-14-rushed-hospital-after-26563927

On the bright side, at least he wasn't trying to pass himself off as trans.

Exactly what does this have to do with women's sex-based rights?
MangyInseam · 27/03/2022 21:49

@Kendodd

Which is a wider problem with Labour over all. It's not just this issue they will shut people up about - they are very comfortable with shutting down the opinions of their members and MPs Really? You think the Tories allow free thinking of their MPs? Have you not been watching the last few years while Johnson purged his party of any remotely sensible MP and prompted a bunch of 'yes men' willing to endorse every lie he says?
I think they allow a lot more than Labour does. I wouldn't dispute the tendency for BJ to want yes men, though to a certain extent I think being in cabinet always involves a willingness to work as part of a team and keep disputes more private. Because otherwise they simply won't be able to act effectively. That's part of the package in all parties, as is a certain amount of party discipline.

But it's among progressives now that the tendency to disallow more and more views has taken hold, where taking certain viewpoint that many would consider moderate is seen as embracing some sort of moral evil.

Iknowitisheresomewhere · 30/03/2022 20:04

twitter.com/unherd/status/1509221580097957898?t=P7yzgRie61PDiqBGare0mg&s=19

Sajid Javid (health minister) also believes biological sex trumps gender (in sport, but hopefully in other things too…)

jkrfan · 30/03/2022 20:11

@Iknowitisheresomewhere

twitter.com/unherd/status/1509221580097957898?t=P7yzgRie61PDiqBGare0mg&s=19

Sajid Javid (health minister) also believes biological sex trumps gender (in sport, but hopefully in other things too…)

That was an impressively clear statement. He needs to sort the NHS out though.
Fifteentoes · 30/03/2022 22:19

Exactly what does this have to do with women's sex-based rights?

Nothing. So if people want to vote for government policies that directly cause such situations, I guess they will.

Slothtoes · 31/03/2022 10:19

For everyone who’s voting Tory purely because you believe the party know what a woman is. Firstly, every living human, deep down, knows what a woman is. Its just a matter of politics whether they will admit that or not. Secondly, you can’t assume that all Tory MPs will truthfully acknowledge what a woman is while they are doing their job of representing us. This is a common problem to all political parties at the moment. It’s awful. Thirdly, you can’t assume that someone acknowledging biological fact will be pro-woman.

Yesterday the Commons voted on Baroness Liz Sugg’s amendment to retain telemedical abortion in England, rather than stop it. This option is known to permit women to have earlier access to abortion which is always going to be safer for them. The RCOG and all the medical organisations and NICE all supported it. However everyone should note that our Boris ‘knows what a woman is’ Johnson Tory government wanted to remove this option. They know very well what a woman is. They just don’t want to make life in any way easier or less distressing for women and girls already in a shit situation. That can only be an idealogical position of this Conservative government, because it went against the evidence and the medical and nursing professions’ views. That was why luckily, Baroness Sugg made this amendment to oppose the government position.

So the result was divided strongly on party lines. The yes vote won by a small majority- as it rightly should have, being the pro-choice, trusting women platform with every medical organisation and NICE backing it. Of those who voted in support of telemedical abortion in the Commons, 55% were Lab and then 33% were Con.

Of MPs who voted against the Sugg amendment 93.5% of them were Conservative. Let that sink in. Doesn’t it show something in Conservativism that is opposed to women having better options on their healthcare. Abortion is already stigmatised and difficult enough for women to navigate without MPs putting in extra barriers?

This conscience vote is illustrative of both individual MPs’ political personalities and of a Tory party political steer. And as usual those MPs without a strong personal or religious conviction in either direction will follow their government line for an easy life. Fuck that.

It means trying to find someone to vote for who is actually pro-woman at next GE is going much more complicated than simply a voting Conservative (because of assuming wrongly that the Tories will support women because they ‘know what a woman is’.) That’s a logic fail, let’s not fall for it.

We will all need to consider each individual candidate’s position very carefully, and not make any assumptions about them being pro-woman or not based on party lines.

ResisterRex · 31/03/2022 15:47

Wasn't the Sugg amendment considered not workable, legally, and substituted for a legally workable amendment?

mobile.twitter.com/nmdacosta/status/1509236290419580933?cxt=HHwWioCzyZ2a8fEpAAAA

Additionally, it is fair to look at the issue and what MPs said. There were issues like: this was brought in due to the pandemic (so, an exceptional measure), concern that the drugs might be taken by others, that these are issues that need to be looked at fully.

I don't have a very strong view on this but I can see that adding a workable amendment can hardly be a bad thing. If a grey area had been endorsed by MPs, that would be a very bad thing all round.

tabbycatstripy · 31/03/2022 15:51

I don’t know enough about this form of abortion provision to comment. I don’t believe MPs voting against it are just “anti-woman”.

tabbycatstripy · 31/03/2022 15:53

And actually, to be fair, there would be concerns, as above. What is the guarantee the drugs wouldn’t be ordered by someone who wanted to forcibly administrate them to a person who didn’t want them, or a person who wasn’t the named patient? Or a person pregnant as a result of abuse? Are there enough safeguards in place? I have no idea.

Slothtoes · 31/03/2022 20:54

I think the medical professions, royal colleges and NICE have done the work and know whether this form of abortion provision is safe, effective and acceptable to women, before supporting it.

MyLittlePhonyPony · 31/03/2022 21:00

Are there enough safeguards in place? I have no idea.

I would be interested to know this too.