AIBU? Trans friend....

[OrchardBlack]

Have NC'd for this.

So a close friend of mine (female) and I booked tickets to an event in our town some time ago, due to take place in a few weeks. Both excited and looking forward to it , all good.

A few weeks ago she asks me if a male , straight friend of hers can also join, no problem, the more the merrier. I've never met him.

Except it now transpires that he has (quite suddenly from what I gather) said he is transitioning to be a woman and will use this night as his 'coming out'. He has messaged my friend saying that he's going to wear a sun dress and heels and he's nervous but excited too. He has also said we are to refer to him by his female name. My friend says he is currently in a relationship with a woman.

Now my friend is saying she is finding this all a lot to take on so suddenly as she's known him for many years as his male name and never even seen him with makeup on. I asked if he would be using the women's toilets on our night out, she doesn't know but I can only assume he is.

I feel very uncomfortable, as does my friend. I am fully supportive of people choosing to live how they wish, I just can't help feeling he's high-jacked our night. He isn't out as trans to any of his family etc so he has said no photos of the night etc. I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

She says she doesn't feel like she can talk to him about it and is concocting a plan to say she has covid and giving me my money back so we don't go. I'm dissapointed as I was looking forward to it.

AIBU to be deflated and a bit annoyed??

@Ereshkigalangcleg

First, many toilets are not segregated at all. Just this last week I have been at a theatre with unisex bathrooms - just a series of cubicles used by men and women.

Yes, they aren't the "female toilets" I was talking about then.

Exactly. They are specifically designed to be used by either sex. Presumably they have a toilet and basin and sanitary bin in the cubicle. The doors will reach all the way to the ceiling and floor. You go into your own private space . Women's toilets that are meant only for women are not designed like this....because they are only meant for women.

Regardless of anybody's stance on the transgender issue, the problem is the hijacking of the event by someone you don't really know to impose rules that will inhibit your enjoyment of the event at best (no photos, remembering to not mis-gender) and at worst, cause a scene if someone accosts the new friend aggressively or starts a fight, thus ruining the entire night for you all.

It's not much different from the time my friend brought her 11yo along to a planned women's night out of drinking, and accordingly, we had to modify our drinking, our (bad) language and our conversation for the bratty little 11 yo in the thick of it acting like she was one of us. It's one member of the group hijacking the event to make it about them and to change it to it being about them. Fuck that.

I would probably be diplomatic in this instance and say that you want to take photos, enjoy your night and not miss the event by potentially getting into spats with other event goers but that you'd be happy to arrange a special night at another time where that friend's coming out as trans IS the focus of the evening.

@RantyAunty

This isn't even a trans issue.

It's a CF friend issue.

Agree. It's your friend who is the problem here.

LEGALLY, under the Equalities Act, said trans people should have a GRC to be protected.
A bloke who has declared this to be his first night out as a TW will not have one of those. As such, he is not "protected as a trans person" legally.

This isn't quite true. It's perfectly acceptable for spaces to be female only, but there is no positive distinction made in the equality act for males with GRC. It is a tricky grey area because they have undergone a legal gender change under the GRA, unlike males without. If a service provider wishes, they can let any of these males who declare that they are women into a women's space. That is a grey area too, as it might be grounds for indirect discrimination against women if they can no longer access services due to the presence of males when they require a female only space for privacy and dignity.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act.

No they are not. There is no positive legal right in the Equality Act for any males to use women's spaces. Single sex exemptions can apply to all males, they are nothing to do with trans anything, allowing any males in makes a space mixed by definition.

Try again. Maybe this time reading the EHRC guidance.

Gender Reassignment is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act. Harassment against people with protected characteristics is prohibited under the Equality Act. Harassment is defined widely to include behaviour that would violate their dignity, which would include forcing a trans woman to use the mens bathrooms. And the OP's friend's friend clearly meets the legal test for gender reassignment.

Also, the single sex exception cannot apply on a blanket basis, that has been established by the courts.

Those that are segregated are not segregated by the chromosomes one has either, either in practice or in law.

They are segregated by the social contract that decent males don't violate women's boundaries. And always have been. There is no toilet based law on these matters.

If no toilets are sex segregated why do we have mens and womens toilets in the first place?

@ThumbWitchesAbroad

"Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act."

LEGALLY, under the Equalities Act, said trans people should have a GRC to be protected.
A bloke who has declared this to be his first night out as a TW will not have one of those. As such, he is not "protected as a trans person" legally.
And legally, toilets CAN be segregated by sex.

That's not true.

The gender reassignment ground under the Equality Act applies to anyone who has taken any steps towards transitioning.

That can include changing names or pronouns, changing appearance etc. GRC is not needed under the Equality Act to have its protection under the gender reassignment ground.

@Ddot

How can he use the mens loo in a frock. You could ask if he can use the disabled or go with him to the ladies, that's the only solution

Not the OPs problem. Why should she have to act as a bodyguard for someone to prop up their fantasy of being something they are not?

Also, the single sex exception cannot apply on a blanket basis, that has been established by the courts.

Yes it can, try reading the notes to the Equality Act. One of the examples mentioned is that a "genuine occupational requirement" under the single sex exemptions could be a rape counselling service which only employs women, and not biological males, even with a GRC.

Which both shows that blanket exemptions can apply in some circumstances and also that excluding GRC holders is a higher bar than excluding non GRC males.

@CrossStichQueen

If no toilets are sex segregated why do we have mens and womens toilets in the first place?

If they are sex segregated, when's the last time you had to prove your chromosomal make up to use the women's bathrooms?

Women really have had all these conversations before here, TeaKlaxon and many of us understand the law at least equally as much as you.

I'm not going to derail the thread by indulging Wot I Reckon Stonewall law experts. We will see how it all pans out in time, I guess.

If they are sex segregated, when's the last time you had to prove your chromosomal make up to use the women's bathrooms

Nobody ever has but that hasn't stopped the very obvious fact that males use make spaces and females use females. When did humans become unable to correctly sex one another with the need for a chromosome test?

@ClaryFairchild

Of course someone dressed as a woman will be using the women's toilets. I don't like to but can you imagine the abuse they will have if they enter that men's toilets?!

I always wonder why this issue isn't the one that TRAs and Trans Support Over All Else types focus on.

But I guess it's easier to bully women.

@TeaKlaxon Firstly, toilets have notionally always been segregated by sex - UNTIL RECENTLY. If a man was entering a woman's toilet, until recently, police or security guards could remove him. So you are incorrect.

First, many toilets are not segregated at all.

Yes we know that, and it doesn't make it right, nor does it justify it. Also, many of us women are attempting to (and in a few circumstances have succeeded) revert unisex toilets.

Second, no one has ever had to do a chromosome test, genital test or show their birth certificate to use a bathroom. There are no rules, much less laws, that require they be used only be people who meet one specific definition of men or women. There never have been.

That's because - until recently - there has never been a need for it. Societal etiquette and societal mores and pressure meant the shame of a man entering a woman's area would have him labelled a pervert and chased down. Now, because of people brainwashed by Meninist ideology to overthrow the rights of Muslim women and women in general, men in women's toilets wouldn't earn the rebuke and censure it would have before.

Third, and linked to the above, trans people have been using bathrooms that align with their gender identity for generations.

That myth is often repeated but without any true foundation. Regardless, that is a strawman. What you are saying is that 'because some do it, then just let all men do it'. Imagine applying your level of 'logic' to, say, doing crystal meth or heroin (oh, we'll never get rid of it so legalise it all), or murders or rapes.

Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act. The exception to this is extremely limited - there can be no blanket ban on trans women using womens bathrooms for example.

There can be blanket bans on bathrooms in some places. And women, Muslim women, and rape/DV survivors are working with the UHCR (forgotten the acronym so that's probably the wrong one) to overturn the rest and enshrine our sex-based rights that our foresisters fought for, in law.

Trans women who pass will tend to use the women's bathrooms.

Most trans women 'think' they pass. In reality, 0000.00000001% do.

Trans women who don't pass tend not to.

On the contrary, 99.999999999% of trans women who don't pass do tend to.

Despite all of the conjecture about her friend's friend relishing the ladies bathroom, she is probably dreading it and may well be seeking out gender neutral spaces to avoid awkwardness. Of course that doesn't suit the bigoted 'narcissist/fetishist' trope that folk here want to trot out but it is the reality.

Who do you think you're really fooling here? The man is so in-your-face with exuberant bolshy over-confident male privilege, I'd lay a bet of my entire home and 5 years salary that the FIRST place he wants to go is stop off at the ladies before they enter the show. It's clear he is not backwards in coming forwards, wake up. Of course the reality doesn't suit your agenda or your deep denial and eager to please men and men's feelings while throwing women, including Muslim Hijabi wearing women under the bus.

I would be seriously pissed off at this. However, I think my disappointment at missing a night out would be vastly outweighed by the idea of being put in this position. I just wouldn't go.

And to the pp who said she used the men's toilets all the time, that is a hugely different situation to a man using the women's toilets. Men are in the men's toilets to take a piss. It's unlikely someone there will use a woman coming in the door in an opportunistic way. But a man entering the women's toilets, dressed as a woman, MAY have bad intentions and, if this is the case, he will hope/assume the fact he is dressed as a woman will create a false sense of security in the women there. If a man walked into women's toilets dressed as a man, women would immediately be on their guard. Men, whatever they're wearing, should just stay the hell out of women's toilets and let us have SOMEWHERE on this planet we can feel safe.

I'm pleased your friends friend feels ready to come out and live their authentic self. It would take guts.

Difficult to hide that male entitlement and "It's all about meeee" thing in a sundress though.

They will realise quite quickly it's a few weeks to go until sundress season though, freeze they will

@TeaKlaxon
Everything you say is wrong.

Just on this last point - toilets are not segregated by sex.
First, many toilets are not segregated at all. Just this last week I have been at a theatre with unisex bathrooms - just a series of cubicles used by men and women Some toilets are not, your movement is pushing for this and this is removing sex segregated toilets. Toilets are largely segregated by sex and you know it. It is just dishonest to pretend otherwise.

Second, no one has ever had to do a chromosome test, genital test or show their birth certificate to use a bathroom. There are no rules, much less laws, that require they be used only be people who meet one specific definition of men or women. There never have been Humans have evolved to be able to tell on sight whether someone is male or female, for the rather obvious reasons of sexual reproduction. All species can do this. It's a real example of the intellectual deceits that people can subject themselves to, to pretend that we are somehow unable to tell what someone's sex is. But you need to create this extreme position, as an admission that we can tell one sex from another means your whole house of cards starts to collapse.
Sex segregated toilets have worked on a strong social understanding and enforcement, just like many social rules do.

Third, and linked to the above, trans people have been using bathrooms that align with their gender identity for generations Another dishonest argument,. Until very recently, most trans people were those with gender dysphoria who were genuinely trying to live as the opposite sex and whose dysphoria drove them to be genuinely perceived as the opposite sex. Now, literally anyone, with no effort, can come under the trans umbrella, regardless of how 'cis' presenting they are (expressions does not need to match identity remember!) and entirely male presenting cross dressers can now claim womanhood. This change is what has caused the safe guarding concerns, and concerns of fairness.

Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act. The exception to this is extremely limited - there can be no blanket ban on trans women using womens bathrooms for example No. Gender identity is not protected. Gender reassignment is.

I would avoid this night out like the plague. But really, mainly, to swerve being involved in such an attention seeking drama. If it was one of my closest friends then, maybe, but not for a friend of a friend.

I get the feeling that some posters here have been incredibly lucky with their interactions with men, which has made them a little naive, compared with those of us who've had some pretty bad experiences?

Every single bad experience, that was sexual in nature, or involved abuse, a male was the perpetrator (I refuse to refer to the trans ex, that sexually co-ereced/abused me, so he could ejaculate with his penis, as a woman). Though I do know women can be abusive towards other woman too, I think statistically it's much less likely/common. I think woman are actually more likely to abuse men, than other women (because there are way more hetro relationships, than lesbian ones?).

I'm bi, in the closet with family, and have had some bad experiences with women, but never abuse, more their personal issues impacting me, mental illness, eating disorders, family drama, addiction, self harm etc.

I've found the dynamic is different in lesbian relationships, for me that's 80% of the appeal.

A lot of the men I know/have dated, are clearly misogynistic, and think women should know their place. I've experienced a fair amount if sexual harassment, especially in work, all of it from men.

My own father (who wonders why he's perpetually single these days), still says shit like "if she was my wife, I'd hit her a good slap". DM always said the minute they got married, he was like a different man.

Men are most at risk, from other men. Something like 80% of murders, are committed by men. "Transwomen", when they express an interest in the feminine (whatever the motivation), feel afraid of other mens reactions, yet they still don't get that women feel that fear from a very young age, and that no matter how they "feel", we can't tell that, we only have our senses and intuition/sub conscience to go by. If we see a man (no matter how he's dressed and woman can usually tell, even if they're too polite to point out, that he isnt't passing), it often triggers a certain response. Like a pp said, when you're out alone on a dark night, and hear foot steps behind you, and you look back and see another woman, and feel relief.

I do think it's a genuine shame that many transwomen clearly feel they can't talk openly about what's going on in their heads. Things like fetishes, kinks and sexual disorders are still so taboo, I wish more could be done to normalise these issues (so seeking appropriate help could be normalised). Those with genuine gender dysphoria, are harmed the most, because so many have lied, to indulge in transvestic (and associated) disorders (just as addicts will lie to get a fix, gamblers to gamble, anorexics to avoid eating, someone with bi-polar, to keep experiencing the euphoria of a manic phase, etc).

*Excuse women/woman typos, my auto correct has ideas of its own

Second, no one has ever had to do a chromosome test, genital test or show their birth certificate to use a bathroom. There are no rules, much less laws, that require they be used only be people who meet one specific definition of men or women. There never have been.

That's because - until recently - there has never been a need for it. Societal etiquette and societal mores and pressure meant the shame of a man entering a woman's area would have him labelled a pervert and chased down. Now, because of people brainwashed by Meninist ideology to overthrow the rights of Muslim women and women in general, men in women's toilets wouldn't earn the rebuke and censure it would have before.

/////

Pina can I add to this excellent point .... speaking with DH in the past on this issue he said that whilst it may be inconvenient he would never, ever attempt to be in a space with women which through social courtesy is reserved for them, especially if his presence would ever cause her discomfort or distress. He says it takes a pretty selfish individual to put their feelz above this.

The previous poster almost seems to support this happening covertly, like a "Ha! It's happening and you don't know it and you'd be so uncomfortable if you did!" sort of gotcha.

It's not much different from the time my friend brought her 11yo along to a planned women's night out of drinking, and accordingly, we had to modify our drinking, our (bad) language and our conversation for the bratty little 11 yo in the thick of it acting like she was one of us. It's one member of the group hijacking the event to make it about them and to change it to it being about them. Fuck that.

Ugh. That's a child you're talking about.
How is this in any way comparable?!
The child will have had no say in whether they went or not
Surely the fault in your scenario is the mum who won't leave her kid at home when she wants a night out/be out with her mates??
From the 11 year old 's point of view I'm sure they'd rather be doing anything than stuck with her old fart mum and all her mates on a get together /wanting a pissed up sesh!
(I say this as someone who is firmly in the leave your kids at home on a night out rather than expect me to feel I have to babysit your kid/ watch my drinking or my language too.
OP and her friends are all presumably grown ups so not comparable.

"Transwomen", when they express an interest in the feminine (whatever the motivation), feel afraid of other mens reactions, yet they still don't get that women feel that fear from a very young age, and that no matter how they "feel", we can't tell that, we only have our senses and intuition/sub conscience to go by. If we see a man (no matter how he's dressed and woman can usually tell, even if they're too polite to point out, that he isnt't passing), it often triggers a certain response. Like a pp said, when you're out alone on a dark night, and hear foot steps behind you, and you look back and see another woman, and feel relief

All of this. And males who identify as women, even if they feel afraid of other men, are doing that with the advantage of having a male's size and strength. They will never know what it is a like to be a woman, with our smaller size and lesser strength and live in a world where almost 50% of the population is bigger and stronger than you and where we have all experienced aggression and intimidation from men, if not assault, BECAUSE they are men and we are women.