AIBU? Trans friend....

[OrchardBlack]

Have NC'd for this.

So a close friend of mine (female) and I booked tickets to an event in our town some time ago, due to take place in a few weeks. Both excited and looking forward to it , all good.

A few weeks ago she asks me if a male , straight friend of hers can also join, no problem, the more the merrier. I've never met him.

Except it now transpires that he has (quite suddenly from what I gather) said he is transitioning to be a woman and will use this night as his 'coming out'. He has messaged my friend saying that he's going to wear a sun dress and heels and he's nervous but excited too. He has also said we are to refer to him by his female name. My friend says he is currently in a relationship with a woman.

Now my friend is saying she is finding this all a lot to take on so suddenly as she's known him for many years as his male name and never even seen him with makeup on. I asked if he would be using the women's toilets on our night out, she doesn't know but I can only assume he is.

I feel very uncomfortable, as does my friend. I am fully supportive of people choosing to live how they wish, I just can't help feeling he's high-jacked our night. He isn't out as trans to any of his family etc so he has said no photos of the night etc. I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

She says she doesn't feel like she can talk to him about it and is concocting a plan to say she has covid and giving me my money back so we don't go. I'm dissapointed as I was looking forward to it.

AIBU to be deflated and a bit annoyed??

@ClaryFairchild

Of course someone dressed as a woman will be using the women's toilets. I don't like to but can you imagine the abuse they will have if they enter that men's toilets?!

Then they should complain to the venue or report to the police - not use the women's toilets. It is not for women to move over and make room.

So forgetting the specifics of the trans issue, on a personal level it seems pretty odd and tone deaf to tag along on someone else’s pre-planned night out (particularly when you guys don’t even know each other) and announce that the night will be about them and their personal milestone (birthday, graduation, coming out, whatever) and as such they will be dictating the details / ‘rules’ of the evening (eg no photos).

They’ve invited themselves along and hijacked your night. The evening wasn’t meant to be about them. Bad manners and socially clumsy. They sound a bit self-absorbed and oblivious to other people.

He has hijacked your night and demanding that you don't take photos is very controlling of him

Surely that's just the same as anyone going on a night out and not wanting their photo taken though?
I can't see where they've said no photos of the night to be taken at all or of anyone?
Loads of people don't want their photo taken on a night out.

Just tell it how it is. He isn't a woman, never will be, and isn't welcome in women only spaces. End of.

He shouldnt be going in the women's toilets and if he can't go in the men's because of fear of being attacked- well men being aggressive towards men because they are wearing feminine apparel is a male problem, nothing to do with women

So unbelievably sick of this misogynistic homophobic shit!!!

Also all of this thread and nowhere does it actually say what bogs the friend will be going in.
Even the OP says they're just assuming as they don't know!

Surely that's just the same as anyone going on a night out and not wanting their photo taken though?
I can't see where they've said no photos of the night to be taken at all or of anyone?

I think it's the phrasing. In the OP it says "no photos of the night etc" and that does imply none of them would be taking any photos, which would be very arrogant of him. If that isn't how he phrased it, it might be different.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

They're saying that you don't automatically think that lesbians are attracted to you/will sexually assault you because they fancy other women.

Even if an individual lesbian did, Quaggars, which they very likely don't, as 98% of sex crime is committed by male people, lesbians are female, and have as much rights to use women's toilets as any other female person. Men do not, even if they are the most wonderful woman supportive men on the planet. Because toilets are segregated by sex.

Just on this last point - toilets are not segregated by sex.

First, many toilets are not segregated at all. Just this last week I have been at a theatre with unisex bathrooms - just a series of cubicles used by men and women.

Second, no one has ever had to do a chromosome test, genital test or show their birth certificate to use a bathroom. There are no rules, much less laws, that require they be used only be people who meet one specific definition of men or women. There never have been.

Third, and linked to the above, trans people have been using bathrooms that align with their gender identity for generations.

Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act. The exception to this is extremely limited - there can be no blanket ban on trans women using womens bathrooms for example.

So no, toilets are not segregated by sex.

What's more, OP's chances of sharing a toilet with a trans woman will not be significantly altered by her friend's friend joining their night out. Trans women who pass will tend to use the women's bathrooms. Trans women who don't pass tend not to. Despite all of the conjecture about her friend's friend relishing the ladies bathroom, she is probably dreading it and may well be seeking out gender neutral spaces to avoid awkwardness. Of course that doesn't suit the bigoted 'narcissist/fetishist' trope that folk here want to trot out but it is the reality.

This situation wouldn’t have arisen because I’m very much two’s company threes a crowd. For me it’s the worst social combination so when asked if a third person who I didn’t know could come I would have said sorry let’s just do as we planned.

That dynamic would have always changed the night without the now further information about his plans.

What I think is raising so many hackles about this situation on the OP's behalf is that it feels appropriative. It's the use of the expression "coming out" along with the fact that he doesn't even know the OP - all together it feels as if the friend has some fantasy about a "supportive girls night out" that he wants to have fulfilled without putting the work in.

I agree with the PPs who are saying that he is hijacking a night out to a particular event that the OP was looking forward to, and that isn't fair. But it's more than that - even if, to all practical purposes, the OP was able to do just as she would have anyway - see the band or whatever, have a couple of drinks, get to know a new person - the issue is that she is being used, roped in to something against her will - and so is her friendship, the one with her real friend.

Why isn't he doing this with his own friends? Partner?

"Coming out" means he wants to make a social drama out of going out in a dress. He isn't actually going to come out - tell all his friends he's transitioned and this is how it is now. That would be too risky and scary and put too many actual real life things at risk. Equally, it's not enough for him just to put on a dress and go to a gig (maybe he already has) because there won't be the validation of the Girl Group.

So he is using someone's actual real relationships (the OP and her friend) as a theatrical backdrop to his fake "coming out" and that is parasitical and lazy and to do with the sugary enjoyment of the girl power girl friendy BFF stereotype.

OP, if your friend is determined to stick to the covid story, see if you can buy her ticket and go with another friend. Don't miss out.

Also all of this thread and nowhere does it actually say what bogs the friend will be going in.
Even the OP says they're just assuming as they don't know!

True however this lack of knowing is part of the reason the OP is unhappy with the person attending the evening. Once they are there if they do decide to use the women's facilities the OP will already be in a situation where her boundaries are crossed. I think the OP has posted for advice on how to not be in that situation and stick to the original plan of just her and her friend going.

@aSofaNearYou

*Surely that's just the same as anyone going on a night out and not wanting their photo taken though? I can't see where they've said no photos of the night to be taken at all or of anyone?*

I think it's the phrasing. In the OP it says "no photos of the night etc" and that does imply none of them would be taking any photos, which would be very arrogant of him. If that isn't how he phrased it, it might be different.

I think its extremely unlikely anyone actually is saying no one is allowed take any photos.

Saying please don't take any photos of me, on the other hand, is entirely reasonable.

How can he use the mens loo in a frock. You could ask if he can use the disabled or go with him to the ladies, that's the only solution

First, many toilets are not segregated at all. Just this last week I have been at a theatre with unisex bathrooms - just a series of cubicles used by men and women.

Yes, they aren't the "female toilets" I was talking about then.

@RantyAunty

Good grief. I hate the third wheel thing.

You think you're going to have a nice evening out with a friend and then they want to invite other people. It's never anyone you've ever met.

No, just NO!

Did her friend just invite themselves and your friend was too wet to say no?

If her friend wants to have a coming out occasion they can book their own evening and not hijack someone else's.

Someone, like your friend, started this nonsense in the first place, needs to tell her that she was expecting a different evening.

I've had this done to me quite a few times in my youth. Think friend wants to take me out for my birthday and takes me to someone else's fucking birthday party who I don't even know! Just to name one incident.

I'd be furious at your friend for doing this to you and would question the friendship.

Yeah, this was my thought to. I don't often get a chance to meet up with my friends these days and when we do it's a chance for us to catch up together. I'd be really disappointed if one of them invited their male partner or friend on our rare night out.

@Quaggars

Also all of this thread and nowhere does it actually say what bogs the friend will be going in. Even the OP says they're just assuming as they don't know!

Oh come now, given how bolshy he is, one would have to be gullible to think he will wear a dress and heels and voluntarily go into the mens rather than the womens! That defeats the entire purpose of his night out. And it's clear he is not at all concerned with making women uncomfortable or is backwards in coming forwards.

Ddot

Why can't he use the mens toilet in a frock?
Hes a male its the male toilet why should what he wears change that?

@Beefcurtains79

I love how *@collyfleur* has indignantly written FRIEND in capital letters, when OP clearly states in the opening post that she has never even met him 🤣.

Yeah, he's an old friend of the OP's friend who has known him for "many years".

@Quaggars

He has hijacked your night and demanding that you don't take photos is very controlling of him

Surely that's just the same as anyone going on a night out and not wanting their photo taken though?
I can't see where they've said no photos of the night to be taken at all or of anyone?
Loads of people don't want their photo taken on a night out.

Yes but Op and her friend presumably do take photos and post them everywhere. He is now saying he doesn't want photos to be taken. If you go out with people who take selfies as part of their enjoyment then they should be allowed to. If you don't want photos taken don't go out with them in the first place.

Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act.

No they are not. There is no positive legal right in the Equality Act for any males to use women's spaces. Single sex exemptions can apply to all males, they are nothing to do with trans anything, allowing any males in makes a space mixed by definition.

"Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act."

LEGALLY, under the Equalities Act, said trans people should have a GRC to be protected.
A bloke who has declared this to be his first night out as a TW will not have one of those. As such, he is not "protected as a trans person" legally.
And legally, toilets CAN be segregated by sex.

Spaces for women are for female people, the fact that some males feel entitled to violate women's boundaries, comfort, privacy and dignity knowing fully well there are women who object is another issue entirely.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

First, many toilets are not segregated at all. Just this last week I have been at a theatre with unisex bathrooms - just a series of cubicles used by men and women.

Yes, they aren't the "female toilets" I was talking about then.

OK.

So not all toilets are segregated in the first place.

Those that are segregated are not segregated by the chromosomes one has either, either in practice or in law.

This isn't even a trans issue.

It's a CF friend issue.