AIBU? Trans friend....

[OrchardBlack]

Have NC'd for this.

So a close friend of mine (female) and I booked tickets to an event in our town some time ago, due to take place in a few weeks. Both excited and looking forward to it , all good.

A few weeks ago she asks me if a male , straight friend of hers can also join, no problem, the more the merrier. I've never met him.

Except it now transpires that he has (quite suddenly from what I gather) said he is transitioning to be a woman and will use this night as his 'coming out'. He has messaged my friend saying that he's going to wear a sun dress and heels and he's nervous but excited too. He has also said we are to refer to him by his female name. My friend says he is currently in a relationship with a woman.

Now my friend is saying she is finding this all a lot to take on so suddenly as she's known him for many years as his male name and never even seen him with makeup on. I asked if he would be using the women's toilets on our night out, she doesn't know but I can only assume he is.

I feel very uncomfortable, as does my friend. I am fully supportive of people choosing to live how they wish, I just can't help feeling he's high-jacked our night. He isn't out as trans to any of his family etc so he has said no photos of the night etc. I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

She says she doesn't feel like she can talk to him about it and is concocting a plan to say she has covid and giving me my money back so we don't go. I'm dissapointed as I was looking forward to it.

AIBU to be deflated and a bit annoyed??

It's completely reasonable for your friend to be uncomfortable about being forced to be involved in this "big reveal". It follows that you should are allowed to be uncomfortable too.
Your friend needs to be up front about this. She might dodge it this time but tbh, if he has latched onto her as "good old Sue" he may just postpone until the next time they go out.
Awkward all round.

Colly

The person in question is not a friend of the OP. The OP has never met them and given the fact that this male is unknown to her and is being secretive/lying to their partner the OP is right to be unsure of their intentions and unhappy that this male has already stated their intentions to use womens spaces.
Or are women not allowed boundaries?

I think id tell my friend that you feel its going to be awkward now, and while you understand he has the right to go out however he wants, you feel that this is now making it all about him, when this is something you two have planned together for ages. You dont know him and your friend needs to ask him to do his coming out ceremony another time

They're saying that you don't automatically think that lesbians are attracted to you/will sexually assault you because they fancy other women. You're right, that is incredibly homophobic. So how can people see and be disgusted by this (rightly) but can't see when it comes to transphobia?

We all know that lesbians do not present a risk of assault to women in the way that men do. We know this through documented evidence of sexual assaults (97% are committed by men and the majority of their victims are women). We know this through our personal experiences of men and women. If we hear footsteps behind us at night, we feel relief if we turn around and see it is a woman, we tense if it is a man.

Its it reasonable to say that allowing males into women's spaces increases risks to women. To say there is not an increased risk you would need to evidence two things. (1) That no male would take advantage of this safeguarding loophole to voyeur upon or assault women. (2) That every male, by saying he identifies as a woman, poses the same risk to women as other women do.

If you can't evidence that, then you are saying that it is ok to put women at risk whilst you conduct this social experiment. Not that the experiment is taking place as the policy makers are too scared to gather the data on what is happening as a result of this policy and practice shift, because people like you call evidence gathering transphobia.

Good grief. I hate the third wheel thing.

You think you're going to have a nice evening out with a friend and then they want to invite other people. It's never anyone you've ever met.

No, just NO!

Did her friend just invite themselves and your friend was too wet to say no?

If her friend wants to have a coming out occasion they can book their own evening and not hijack someone else's.

Someone, like your friend, started this nonsense in the first place, needs to tell her that she was expecting a different evening.

I've had this done to me quite a few times in my youth. Think friend wants to take me out for my birthday and takes me to someone else's fucking birthday party who I don't even know! Just to name one incident.

I'd be furious at your friend for doing this to you and would question the friendship.

[quote Lockheart]@trancepants the poster was not conflating lesbians with transwomen or implying that lesbians aren't women.

The objection was that someone who was attracted to women would be in the toilets. Another poster pointed out that lesbians are also attracted to women but there is no issue with them using the bathrooms.

This is not equating lesbians to men, or transwomen. The comparison is one of sexual attraction to women, not sex or gender identity.[/quote]
Women are often sexually attracted to women. It is, however, vanishingly rare for women to commit sexual violence. This is the reason for sexually segregated spaces.

@Allandnothing

Presumably they think your friend is a good friend and someone who will be supportive but thIs doesn’t seem to be the case. Your friend should talk to them and explain that she’s not comfortable with this, for whatever reason. And it sounds like the trans woman needs to get better friends.

Or Op's friend needs a better male friend.

Breaking it down from her POV
Female friend arranges girls night out with OP.

Friend knows heterosexual/bisexual male in a relationship with a female partner who invites himself along.

Heterosexual/bisexual male in a relationship with a female partner is now going out on a pissup with female friend (presumably single) and her female friend (presumably single) whom he has never met.

Hetrosexual/bisexual male making the night all his wants expecting OPs friend to manage the introduction between him and OP. To manage the relationship between him and OP. To manage the relationship between him and their (SM) friends.

To manage the relationship between him and his female partner because she is just going to love and adore the fact that he decided to exclude her, his partner, from this life event. Nothing says suportive friendship as much as being the other woman, without being the other woman.

To be fair to the OP, she may well not have posted on the feminism board. Mnhq moves stuff across here because men's rights activists object to us talking about it.

Of course it's about behaviour and red flags for boundary pushing far more than it is about trans issues. You rarely hear of transmen behaving like this. In fact the OP contrasts the behaviour of this man with her transman friend. Women are right to be wary of males who push boundaries. It is known that their behaviour can escalate.

And to those crying transphobia, are you seriously telling me that the behaviour demonstrated so far by this man is inherent to having a trans identity? By doing so, you are enabling abusive males to use trans as a smoke screen. You are creating a special category of male whose intentions may never be questioned. Women then force themselves to ignore red flags. For fucks sake learn from the many many scandals that have already happened (Catholic Church, Saville, Michael Jackson, Scouts, Met Police etc). Men use special status to abuse.

Most transwomen are perfectly normal, reasonable people who do not wish to erode boundaries or use women as props.

@CollyFleur

I can't believe this is a genuine post. It reads like the content has been specifically designed to whip up maximum hate. The OP later asserts that it's not about trans rights but about having her night out highjacked - so why post it in the Feminism board?

And many of the responses
We women can think whatever we like about men living as women and women living as men, gender transitioning and trans rights etc etc etc - for what it's worth I am sceptical of many aspects - but that should be a campaign for / against government policy and should never spill out into hate against individuals - an actual FRIEND in this case - and their choices.

So, if the post IS genuine, I have the following advice for OP and her female friend:

1. You've got no idea how the evening is going to pan out or what it will make you feel until you try it.
2. If you feel uncomfortable about your other friend using the ladies toilets then perhaps need to look more closely at your choice of friends! I would have none of this kind of worry about any of my friends using any kind of toilet because I try not to associate with sex offenders.
3. Chances are you will have the same brilliant night out that you would have done if it was just the two of you, or maybe even more fun. It may open your eyes to the lived experiences of others. Give it a go.

He isn't Ops friend. He is a stranger to her. She has never met him

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

So he has a problem in the gents' toilet and somehow women have some sort of responsibility?

Yup. And somehow it's all our fault.

Wouldn't catch me going into even a female toilet with a man standing outside. If a trans woman is worried about being attacked in a male toilet they can dress differently (like women have to) or hold it and wait till they get home (like women do)

women are scared all the time of men.
I wouldn't wear a dress on a night out because the last time I did, a man put his hand up my skirt. (not the first time either.
I wouldn't wear a low cut top because I don't like men making comments about my breasts. or worse trying to "honk" them. or guess the size bra, or ask if I'm even wearing one.
If I can change the way I dress to mitigate filthy, disgusting male behaviour then surely a man transitioning to female can too? it seems to be obvious.
you can wear feminine clothes that aren't sun dresses. Like some nice trousers and a floral top? I mean I have seen men wear more flowers and pink than i have, normal mens clothes with pretty patterns.
This makes me feel uncomfortable and the idea that he wants to keep it secret makes the red flag alarm go off in my head. We all know secrets are dangerous. And the 'you can't take photos' thing. So you don't want any evidence of the night out? Coming out to a friend and a stranger? I mean if I wanted to get my rocks off wanking in the girls toilets to girls pissing and get away with it I'd do what this fella is asking. An expendable friend, keep it a secret with a stranger, ask for no photos. I don't know. it seems dodgy and I would have been sucked into the facade as a teen but as an adult I wouldn't put myself in that situation just incase.
just incase this man is trying to trick me into being alone in the bathroom with him so he can rape me.

And if that's transphobic then I don't give a fuck. I might have a different opinion if the person in question had been transitioning for a while and wasn't coming out to me as a stranger. But if they still have a dick after 10 years even, I sure as shit am going to be careful because men rape and kill women and I don't care who I offend anymore trying to keep myself protected from that.

I think reactions like this are why conversations about women’s spaces are so hard to have.

It doesn’t sound like you’d be happy with her coming even if she didn’t use the ladies loos so anything you say on the subject just sounds transphobic.

Saying that you’re supportive of people choosing how they live doesn’t make it true.

@CollyFleur

I can't believe this is a genuine post. It reads like the content has been specifically designed to whip up maximum hate. The OP later asserts that it's not about trans rights but about having her night out highjacked - so why post it in the Feminism board?

And many of the responses
We women can think whatever we like about men living as women and women living as men, gender transitioning and trans rights etc etc etc - for what it's worth I am sceptical of many aspects - but that should be a campaign for / against government policy and should never spill out into hate against individuals - an actual FRIEND in this case - and their choices.

So, if the post IS genuine, I have the following advice for OP and her female friend:

1. You've got no idea how the evening is going to pan out or what it will make you feel until you try it.
2. If you feel uncomfortable about your other friend using the ladies toilets then perhaps need to look more closely at your choice of friends! I would have none of this kind of worry about any of my friends using any kind of toilet because I try not to associate with sex offenders.
3. Chances are you will have the same brilliant night out that you would have done if it was just the two of you, or maybe even more fun. It may open your eyes to the lived experiences of others. Give it a go.

@CollyFleur People earlier in the thread insinuated it was posted in AIBU but Mumsnet moved it.

Can your friend not just say to her friend

“I don’t think this is the best night for your coming out. Orchard and I had this planned for a while and she doesn’t actually know you. I think it’s best if just Orchard and I go to the event, but please do invite me to your coming out evening when you reschedule it”

They can do as they please but you can’t make an event that someone else has organised all about you (as in the friend can’t)!

CollyFleur

I'm thrilled for you that your life so far has been free from abuse.

I also try not to hang out with sex offenders but it didn't stop the very worst from happening. A friend of a friend, no less, and someone that no doubt goes around life identifying as a good guy.

Safeguarding is a blunt tool but until abusive males wear a flashing light on their head that, and recognising red flags, is all we've got. It's not as if the woeful prosecution rate does anything to deter males from abuse.

YANBU to want your night out with your friend to be the coming out party of someone you don't know.

YABU for I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

I love how @collyfleur has indignantly written FRIEND in capital letters, when OP clearly states in the opening post that she has never even met him 🤣.

@Nellle

Yes, that's literally what I said.

Sounds like OP (and OP's friend) will choose not be friends with this person based on their gender identity.

It’s Fuck all to do with Gender Identity.

This ‘friend’ is a selfish wanker hijacking some one else’s night out for their own personal gratification.

Why would anyone want to be friends with someone so incredibly self centred??

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If your creep radar is going off, which it sounds like it is - loudly - then listen to it.

This is good advice. The more naive posters here need to learn to trust their instincts when they are uncomfortable.

The difficulty comes when the creep radar is drowned out my the 'cool girl' hum "must be cool, must accept this total bullshit, must be cool'.

He has hijacked your night and demanding that you don't take photos is very controlling of him. Can you go with someone else, and your friend can do the Covid thing and tell him the night's off?

house

Why is the OP unreasonable to be wary of an intact hetrosexual male using the women's bathroom?

It's pretty simple.
He's a man, he has a girlfriend, he's never "come out" as a TW before but he wants to do it on the OP's night out.
It's therefore clear that he's still a straight male with all the associated equipment, and is potentially a risk to females in a female environment, because he may be an AGP and may get "excited" about being in a dress.

It's got fuck all to do with lesbians, because lesbians are women and lesbians/women have an exceptionally low rate of sexually assaulting other women in toilets etc. Not saying it's a zero rate, because it isn't - but it's massively, massively lower than male sexual assault on women, and massively lower than male sexual assault on males.

@CrossStichQueen

So how can people see and be disgusted by this (rightly) but can't see when it comes to transphobia?

What is transphobic about not wanting males in women's spaces?

👏🏼 Transphobic is just the easy word for them to throw around.

@housemaus

YANBU to want your night out with your friend to be the coming out party of someone you don't know.

YABU for I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

Why is the being unreasonable? He is attracted to women and a man, he shouldn't be in womens safe spaces. YABU if you think men should be allowed in womens safe spaces.

And to those crying transphobia, are you seriously telling me that the behaviour demonstrated so far by this man is inherent to having a trans identity? By doing so, you are enabling abusive males to use trans as a smoke screen. You are creating a special category of male whose intentions may never be questioned

This is so true.

Can't question any behaviour if it comes from transwomen or its transphobic?

When does that apply to any other group? I can act like I want because I am mixed race? to not actively encourage and support my poor behaviour is racist? Or misogynistic?