AIBU? Trans friend....

[OrchardBlack]

Have NC'd for this.

So a close friend of mine (female) and I booked tickets to an event in our town some time ago, due to take place in a few weeks. Both excited and looking forward to it , all good.

A few weeks ago she asks me if a male , straight friend of hers can also join, no problem, the more the merrier. I've never met him.

Except it now transpires that he has (quite suddenly from what I gather) said he is transitioning to be a woman and will use this night as his 'coming out'. He has messaged my friend saying that he's going to wear a sun dress and heels and he's nervous but excited too. He has also said we are to refer to him by his female name. My friend says he is currently in a relationship with a woman.

Now my friend is saying she is finding this all a lot to take on so suddenly as she's known him for many years as his male name and never even seen him with makeup on. I asked if he would be using the women's toilets on our night out, she doesn't know but I can only assume he is.

I feel very uncomfortable, as does my friend. I am fully supportive of people choosing to live how they wish, I just can't help feeling he's high-jacked our night. He isn't out as trans to any of his family etc so he has said no photos of the night etc. I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

She says she doesn't feel like she can talk to him about it and is concocting a plan to say she has covid and giving me my money back so we don't go. I'm dissapointed as I was looking forward to it.

AIBU to be deflated and a bit annoyed??

@ClaryFairchild

Of course someone dressed as a woman will be using the women's toilets. I don't like to but can you imagine the abuse they will have if they enter that men's toilets?!

Why would they get abuse? Surely you are not you saying that all men are abusive to other men who dress in a non conventional way? That seems a rather hateful and bigoted thing to say about all men.

Surely the event will have security staff that this person could complain to , in the unlinked event that they are abused.

Perhaps you could link to the crime statics that show that men wearing unusual clothes are abused in mens toilets at events ?

That is not what friend of friend is doing. They are using a night out, which is not actually anything to do with them, to demand expectations of both a friend to call him a totally different name immediately, but keep it secret from his own family, and potentially using women's spaces whilst also identifying as a straight male.
Yes, I may be missing the point, but to me the oddest thing is that this person is using a night out with you, who they don't know at all.
I'm willing for my ignorance to be corrected, but isn't coming out more effective if you come out to people you actually know?

As to 'the abuse they will have if they enter that men's toilets', as others have said, that doesn't mean women should be denied their own private spaces. We need a conversation about male aggression, not to expect women to just put up and shut up.

All these pages on this - yet again it shows that women pander too much to others as opposed to thinking about themselves and worry that they will upset someone . If this was a male group I very much doubt that there would be the same humming and hawing.It would a "sorry no mate"

[quote BiscuitLover3678]@titchy the whole concern the op had was that the friend is attracted to women. Literally nothing to do with how his/her genitals are looking.[/quote]
@BiscuitLover3678 So you really do lack English comprehension. The whole concern is that a night out has been hijacked by a bolshy narcissistic man who thinks wearing a dress and high heels is what being a woman is about. Literally nothing at all whatsoever as to who he is attracted to. Try actually reading the OPs posts before commenting.

@BiscuitLover3678

What if this was a woman who was gay? Would you still be scared of her coming and using the toilet with you? So messed up.

That would be two women using the toilet. The OP friend using the toilet would mean a man is using the womens toilet. As he is a male, he should use the male toilets, even if he's wearing a dress.

@Jobseeker19

What I don't understand Re toilets, is that when our sons reach 8-9 maybe even younger, we make them go to the mens by themselves and that can be uncomfortable for me and them but its what we do to make other women feel comfortable.

We know our children do not pose any harm and they are with their mother, but they have a penis and need to use the mens toilet now. (Where they have to look down so they don't see mens bits in the urinals)

Why do transwomen feel like they can use the women's toilet even if they pose no harm?

Quite. I remember being in the swimming change rooms with my son aged 7. We'd get changed in a cubicle then walk straight out past the main women's change area, but then one day, I spotted a girl of a similar age spotting him as we walked past and snatching up her towel, clearly uncomfortable. That's when I knew he needed to start using the men's. And he did. My 7yo was certainly no threat to her or anyone else. It was about respecting that girl's right to get changed in a space where she felt comfortable. If he and other male children are perfectly capable of using the men's, why on earth isn't a fully adult trans woman? That's because it's not about safety. It's about wanting the validation, and thinking that overrides respect for women's privacy.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If one were looking for signs that a man is a danger to women, I'd say boundary violation is a sign.

It's a red flag.

Indeed. Mindboggling how a man who says he is "trans" can behave in a way that if any other man behaved many posters would be screaming "LTB!", "He's a narc!"

All a misogynistic, controlling, narcissist has to say is "I'm trans!" to have a free pass and a crowd of adoring apologists.

I prefer the expression 'gynophobic'.

@Quaggars

imply that lesbians somehow aren't women. Shame on you! Where did they do that?! I read it as because they're attracted to women, you wouldn't automatically be scared of them, would you

Any inference that lesbians are just like transwomen, ie biological males, is implicitly implying that lesbians aren't quite women either. Anyone who doesn't automatically recognise that, ie you obviously, needs to examine why it is that isn't automatically obvious to them. Because it's really, really horrendously fucking homophobic. If you don't automatically see how disgusting that comparison is then your own homophobia is showing.

@RJnomore1

To be honest this isn’t anything to do with trans stuff. It’s to do with someone hijacking another persons night out to make it all about them them them. Could have been say deciding it was going to be their birthday do instead . It’s not appropriate.

Yes, this is what I was going to say. It’s got to the point where the OP and her friend are going to cancel their night out, which is a shame.

@trancepants the poster was not conflating lesbians with transwomen or implying that lesbians aren't women.

The objection was that someone who was attracted to women would be in the toilets. Another poster pointed out that lesbians are also attracted to women but there is no issue with them using the bathrooms.

This is not equating lesbians to men, or transwomen. The comparison is one of sexual attraction to women, not sex or gender identity.

Your friend must tell other friend that you already planned this night out some time ago for the two of you and you think the coming out will be hard to encompass with your plans and the coming out will have to be a separate session. i.e. no they can't come with you.

Lockheart

Another poster pointed out that lesbians are also attracted to women but there is no issue with them using the bathrooms.

Because they are women. They're not somehow lesser women. They don't have less right to use women's spaces than anyone else. To imply that straight women should be the arbiter of who uses women spaces is homophobic. Men, on the other hand, do not have any right to use women's spaces. It is not anything phobic for women to have their own spaces. You cannot see the homophobia of what you are implying.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Lockheart

Another poster pointed out that lesbians are also attracted to women but there is no issue with them using the bathrooms.

Because they are women. They're not somehow lesser women. They don't have less right to use women's spaces than anyone else. To imply that straight women should be the arbiter of who uses women spaces is homophobic. Men, on the other hand, do not have any right to use women's spaces. It is not anything phobic for women to have their own spaces. You cannot see the homophobia of what you are implying.

You conveniently left off the final paragraph of my post. Lesbians are women and do have a right to use women's bathrooms.

And men don't, so it's not a good analogy.

Lockheart

Lesbians are female. Using the women's bathroom is because of their sex not their sexual orientation.
The transperson discussed here is male therefore has no right to use the female bathroom. The fact that this male is heterosexual does add further boundary issues as their intentions are unknown. AGP is a fetish and part of that is gaining access to women in spaces they are vulnerable.

Comparing lesbians to men re who gets to use single sex female spaces is homophobic.

Doesn't sound like a fun night out to me. Sounds very stressful. Can you cancel and quietly rearrange with the people you want to go with for another time?

[quote Lockheart]@trancepants the poster was not conflating lesbians with transwomen or implying that lesbians aren't women.

The objection was that someone who was attracted to women would be in the toilets. Another poster pointed out that lesbians are also attracted to women but there is no issue with them using the bathrooms.

This is not equating lesbians to men, or transwomen. The comparison is one of sexual attraction to women, not sex or gender identity.[/quote]
You do realise sexual assault has nothing to do with attraction and everything to do with power? Men don't sexually assault women because they "fancy" them, they do it to assert power and dominance, to show who is in control, because they are steeped in misogyny and see women as less than. They do it because they physically can.

The argument for allowing men who identify as trans to use women's single-sex facilities is so thin you and others resort to the "But, but...LESBIANS!!!"

Lesbians are women. They belong in our single-sex spaces. Men, no matter how spinny their skirt and how good they are at tilting their head in a bathroom selfie, do not belong in our single-sex spaces because they are men.

Invite his girlfriend?

I would be super pissed off if someone I didn't know wanted to use a long-planned event with my friend to celebrate some milestone of their own. No matter what that milestone was. And I'd be not only pissed off, but damn suspicious if that person wanted to celebrate that milestone secretly, without telling their own family. It would make me feel used.

On top of that, I'd be pissed off, suspicious and OUTRAGED if this person then demanded that I and my friend should not take pics on our long planned night togethger.

JFC! Dump this dude as soon as you get to the event and enjoy your night with your friend. He's being a selfish prick, and he's expecting leeway just because he larps as a lady.

@Nincomepoop

Just tell him the night is about you and your friend catching up and having thought about it you’d rather not share the experience with someone you don’t know. Offer no further explanation. Just a firm no he can’t come. Go and enjoy the evening with your friend.

Definitely this. I would feel the same if a friend asked to bring an actual woman along that I didn't know. It would change the dynamic completely.

Once more for the people at the back - lesbians are women, that is why they are in our single-sex spaces. Men who identify as trans are men, that is why they need to stay out of our single-sex spaces. It really is as simple as that.

Imagine in 2022 having to explain to people that lesbians and men are not the same thing.

She couldn't have planned her own night out to do all this?