AIBU? Trans friend....

[OrchardBlack]

Have NC'd for this.

So a close friend of mine (female) and I booked tickets to an event in our town some time ago, due to take place in a few weeks. Both excited and looking forward to it , all good.

A few weeks ago she asks me if a male , straight friend of hers can also join, no problem, the more the merrier. I've never met him.

Except it now transpires that he has (quite suddenly from what I gather) said he is transitioning to be a woman and will use this night as his 'coming out'. He has messaged my friend saying that he's going to wear a sun dress and heels and he's nervous but excited too. He has also said we are to refer to him by his female name. My friend says he is currently in a relationship with a woman.

Now my friend is saying she is finding this all a lot to take on so suddenly as she's known him for many years as his male name and never even seen him with makeup on. I asked if he would be using the women's toilets on our night out, she doesn't know but I can only assume he is.

I feel very uncomfortable, as does my friend. I am fully supportive of people choosing to live how they wish, I just can't help feeling he's high-jacked our night. He isn't out as trans to any of his family etc so he has said no photos of the night etc. I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

She says she doesn't feel like she can talk to him about it and is concocting a plan to say she has covid and giving me my money back so we don't go. I'm dissapointed as I was looking forward to it.

AIBU to be deflated and a bit annoyed??

The argument for allowing men who identify as trans to use women's single-sex facilities is so thin you and others resort to the "But, but...LESBIANS!!!"

This is it. It's a lame gotcha, which implies they see some groups of women's sex based rights as something with the potential to be questioned, even though they don't necessarily think of them as lesser or different women consciously.

All female people have equal rights to use women's spaces, because they aren't straight women's spaces, they are based on sex.

I'd wager the transwoman envisages a giggling girly trip to the ladies at some point for the 3 of them.

No thank you.

The objection was that someone who was attracted to women would be in the toilets

No, not "someone", the objection was about a man who is attracted to women.

Does his partner know? I would feel massively deceived if DP was using nights out with female friends to practice living as a woman behind my back.

I think your friend should be honest. Say that she supports the transition and let's arrange a night our specifically for coming out, as she doesn't feel that this is the right night for it. If she lies about having COVID it will seem transphobic if he finds out. I think it can be framed in a way that is loving and supportive, if that is how your friend feels about the transition, while dissuading him from using this night for those purpose.

Alternatively Could she maybe bend the truth a bit and say that one of you has had a bad time or is going through a break up or its your birthday or career move celebration or something and this night is about that?

Wow. Even totally setting the trans issue aside this is clearly a massive hijacking of your night out. If she won't speak to them I would let her make her Covid excuse, and ask someone else to go with you.

Male entitlement, again. I'd cut my losses and do something else (anything else) that evening. I wouldn't be part of their make-believe evening.

@TeaKlaxon

YABU

Let’s just be clear that a night out is not some sacrosanct ritual that no one else can join or make important to them. You were happy to have this person along when you thought she was a cisgender straight man. It doesn’t sound like this is some special occasion like a birthday that’s going to be detracted from by someone coming out.

Second, why would someone coming out make it all about them. Coming out literally just means it is her first night out presenting as a woman. How does that hijack your night? If she had said instead that she was a gay man and that would have been her first night out as an openly gay man, would that also be hijacking the night?

You have no obligations to this woman, but I think you should certainly examine your prejudices and be less shitty towards her.

Your friend on the other hand sounds awful - she claims to be a friend of this person but is unwilling to support them through transition. I hope this person realises sooner rather than later how awful your friend is to them and finds a better support network.

I agree with this. It's not a wedding. I doubt anyone else in the audience will care what they wear.

I feel really sorry for this person if this thread is a reflection is the "support" they can expect from their friends. No wonder they don't yet want photos sending to their family.

I've used mixed sex toilets. They all had cubicles. It was not a big deal.

Any inference that lesbians are just like transwomen, ie biological males, is implicitly implying that lesbians aren't quite women either

Nobody's saying lesbians are just like biological males though.
They're saying that you don't automatically think that lesbians are attracted to you/will sexually assault you because they fancy other women.
You're right, that is incredibly homophobic.
So how can people see and be disgusted by this (rightly) but can't see when it comes to transphobia?!

it’s pretty crap of this person to put caveats on your night out,, I wouldn’t change my plans. I would make it clear that it’s not their ‘coming out’ party, photos will be taken and possibly posted on SM, it’s their choice if they want to be included in photos.
Secondly, don’t make the night about them, acknowledging it’s a big step for him/ her doesn’t mean it has to take over the night, that will only happen if you allow it too.
Thirdly, the toilet thing., I don’t think it will be an issue, yes it will be strange but we know what it’s like after a few drinks .no one will care and if they do.. let he/ she handle it.
You could end up having a great time, with a few interesting stories to tell and memories made… just go have fun!

"I've never seen someone get a kick out of watching a lady use the loo tbh."

I have. I had a male "friend" (very occasional fwb over the years, but he knew I was dating someone else at the time), who I rarely drank with, who when we did have a drink one night (quite a lot in his case), barged in, while I was just starting to pee, and started to unzip himself, while asking for a bj/for me to fulfil a fantasy of his. It's as well I have good muscle control down there, I was able to stop peeing, fixed myself, shoved him away, gathered my stuff and ran like fuck!

If I were you, and friend had said that their friend, was going to wear a sundress and heels, but left it at that, I wouldn't be bothered at all. It's the "I'm really a woman, you have to use female pronouns, watch me encroach on female spaces, without saying a word" that boils my piss. Like being a woman is akin to wearing a costume, that's all there is to it (a costume that actual women can't take off). Oh and the hijacking your night, to make it all about them is a dick move (instead of planning their own separate night to make their debut).

I used this analogy with my ds recently, if someone took a pony, dyed it's hair black, painted it with black and white stripes, and said it was now a zebra, does that mean it really is a zebra now?

I despair. Female socialisation to “be nice” is apparently so suffocating that OP and PPs have agonised for 13 pages on this thread about how to politely say No to narcissistic male entitlement!
OP, Just say NO. It’s a complete sentence, as MNetters are fond of pointing out. You owe nobody any explanation, justification or excuse. Least of all an entitled misogynist narcissist who wishes you to be an accessory in his fantasy behind his partner’s back.

It's simple really. Have a little look in your pants. If you've got a woman's genitals then you go in the women's toilet. If you have that penis thing you go in the men's toilet. It doesn't matter how lacy your pants are or how high your heels, you have a penis. Please take it out of our spaces. We dont want to have to accept it/ put up with it/ accept the risk you pose. We don't have to be pushed into being 'çool girl' about it. These are our spaces. Please do not invade them.

I wouldn’t be up for this, it’s one thing being joined by a friend of a friend you don’t know, another participating in their ‘coming out’ etc.

I would either accept the money back from my friend or keep my own ticket and go to the event alone and let your friend decide what to do as regards herself and her friend.

So how can people see and be disgusted by this (rightly) but can't see when it comes to transphobia?

What is transphobic about not wanting males in women's spaces?

I've used mixed sex toilets. They all had cubicles. It was not a big deal.

Using mixed sex toilets with floor to ceiling doors is not the same as stall toilets in a nightclub or bar with big gaps and broken locks etc, and mixed sex loos can be intimidating and unpleasant if you are alone and you have to walk past a drunk lairy man to get to a cubicle.

@Nellle

Yes, that's literally what I said.

Sounds like OP (and OP's friend) will choose not be friends with this person based on their gender identity.

This cannot be true.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Their choice not to be friends with this bloke if they do so choose must be based on something else.

-- His selfishness and apparent narcissism, perhaps?

The friend who wants to join the night out dressed as a woman probably thought he would get some support from his friend and the OP. Maybe he thinks it might be easier to try out dressing in women's clothes in the company of people who don't know him that well but I agree with many others here I don't think it's the occasion to do so. It will change the dynamic completely. He needs to try out the sundress and heels in public with his friends only first.

Some men (but of course not necessarily this one) get a thrill from the idea of themselves as a female. It's called Autogynephilia. Of course, no one can be sure of anyone else's motivations for believing themselves to be the opposite sex. For some it is gender disphoria, an uncomfortableness in their own sexed body. I would be very wary OP. You might unwittingly become part of a person's fetish. - Have I worded this in a way that will not cause Mumsnet to delete?!?

As for the photos, I read it as didn't want any photos taken of them, but didn't say anything about not taking any photos of the night at all.
As in just take photos of you and the original friend you were going out with, and don't take any of other friend at all.
Just like you would with anyone else who didn't want their photo taken.

As to the photos this is nonsense. If this was a woman coming out of an abusive relationship who needed to avoid photos of her online for her own safety, no one would claim she was ‘hijacking the night out’ by asking for no photos of her.

This woman is not saying no photos - just none with her. That’s the right of anyone who goes on a night out for any reason. OP doesn’t have some god given right to take a photo of someone and post it online just because she’s on a night out with them. And it’s not unreasonable for someone to ask her not to do that.

[quote MichelleScarn]@SolasAnla nope, totally lost now![/quote]
@MichelleScarn

Random thought process
Utube had randomly served me up this gem of Gurry leopard print

Along with this

All the skinny legs modelling 😁
But Tina is 82!!

m.imdb.com/name/nm0877913/

Trans issue aside, it sounds like a shite night out that's been totally hijacked by a narcissistic drama queen that you haven't even met. Leave them to it. You've got Covid or something.

They're saying that you don't automatically think that lesbians are attracted to you/will sexually assault you because they fancy other women.

Even if an individual lesbian did, Quaggars, which they very likely don't, as 98% of sex crime is committed by male people, lesbians are female, and have as much rights to use women's toilets as any other female person. Men do not, even if they are the most wonderful woman supportive men on the planet. Because toilets are segregated by sex.

I would uninvite him if you think it will spoil your night. It was originally meant to be just you and your friend until your friend invited him (her?!). You can still enjoy a nice night out, just the two of you. Why cancel something you've had planned and been looking forward to just to cancel it because one person is having a massive identity crisis and won't let you take photos of YOUR night out he has hijacked.