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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

AIBU? Trans friend....

609 replies

OrchardBlack · 21/03/2022 22:41

Have NC'd for this.

So a close friend of mine (female) and I booked tickets to an event in our town some time ago, due to take place in a few weeks. Both excited and looking forward to it , all good.

A few weeks ago she asks me if a male , straight friend of hers can also join, no problem, the more the merrier. I've never met him.

Except it now transpires that he has (quite suddenly from what I gather) said he is transitioning to be a woman and will use this night as his 'coming out'. He has messaged my friend saying that he's going to wear a sun dress and heels and he's nervous but excited too. He has also said we are to refer to him by his female name. My friend says he is currently in a relationship with a woman.

Now my friend is saying she is finding this all a lot to take on so suddenly as she's known him for many years as his male name and never even seen him with makeup on. I asked if he would be using the women's toilets on our night out, she doesn't know but I can only assume he is.

I feel very uncomfortable, as does my friend. I am fully supportive of people choosing to live how they wish, I just can't help feeling he's high-jacked our night. He isn't out as trans to any of his family etc so he has said no photos of the night etc. I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

She says she doesn't feel like she can talk to him about it and is concocting a plan to say she has covid and giving me my money back so we don't go. I'm dissapointed as I was looking forward to it.

AIBU to be deflated and a bit annoyed??

OP posts:
trancepants · 22/03/2022 08:12

@BiscuitLover3678

What if this was a woman who was gay? Would you still be scared of her coming and using the toilet with you? So messed up.
Women are women. How fucking homophobic of you to imply that lesbians somehow aren't women. Shame on you!
TheGreatATuin · 22/03/2022 08:13

@Nellle

Yes, that's literally what I said.

Sounds like OP (and OP's friend) will choose not be friends with this person based on their gender identity.

Nope. OP (and OP's friend) will choose not to be friends with a male person who is demonstrating narcissistic behaviour, that he has little respect for OP's or friend's boundaries, and clearly expects to hijack a planned evening between two women to instead make it an evening where those women are expected to spend it celebrating and validating his wants. Red flags up the wazoo. A trans woman who is a genuine friend and has respect for women would not do this. This is about boundary pushing and OP and OP's friend are quite right not to want to. It also says everything that neither of the women feel comfortable saying no to this and are instead considering cancelling a paid for evening that they've looked forward to for a long time because they know that a simple 'no' is likely going to result in them being called transphobic.
Ddot · 22/03/2022 08:14

Lesbians don't have dicks

ImAvingOops · 22/03/2022 08:14

I haven't rt whole ft but if I was your friend I would be having an honest conversation with him and saying it isn't appropriate to invite himself along and then make the evening all about him!
I would still attend this event, but not with this man - you shouldn't allow yourselves to be pushed out of your pre arranged evening to accommodate this massive level of entitlement.

CrossStichQueen · 22/03/2022 08:15

Joined

Because the OP said the person in question was attracted to women and that's why she was uncomfortable with them using the female bathroom. As a wider issue it doesn't, as others have pointed out it's to do with male on female violence but that's not what the OP was referring to.

The transgender male is not a lesbian. They are a fully intact straight male. This is what is making the OP uncomfortable. So posters stating what if this was a lesbian are strawmanning as lesbians are not male.

GCAcademic · 22/03/2022 08:16

@BiscuitLover3678

Having a penis does not mean you have an urge to go into the toilet and perve on women. What does this say about your perception of gay women? Because that’s homophobic and also disgusting.
You're the one who's homophobic. Suggesting that lesbians pose the same kind of threat to women as males. Nice.
Quaggars · 22/03/2022 08:16

imply that lesbians somehow aren't women. Shame on you!
Where did they do that?!
I read it as because they're attracted to women, you wouldn't automatically be scared of them, would you

PinaColada123456 · 22/03/2022 08:19

@TeaKlaxon

YABU

Let’s just be clear that a night out is not some sacrosanct ritual that no one else can join or make important to them. You were happy to have this person along when you thought she was a cisgender straight man. It doesn’t sound like this is some special occasion like a birthday that’s going to be detracted from by someone coming out.

Second, why would someone coming out make it all about them. Coming out literally just means it is her first night out presenting as a woman. How does that hijack your night? If she had said instead that she was a gay man and that would have been her first night out as an openly gay man, would that also be hijacking the night?

You have no obligations to this woman, but I think you should certainly examine your prejudices and be less shitty towards her.

Your friend on the other hand sounds awful - she claims to be a friend of this person but is unwilling to support them through transition. I hope this person realises sooner rather than later how awful your friend is to them and finds a better support network.

@TeaKlaxon Wow, you are way out of line here. Way out of line. This is about his selfish hijacking as much as it is about his fake 'coming out' that he expects OP and friend to be party to his deceptions against his partner. I repeat what I said to someone else; Whether the night is 'significant' or not, this man was invited along graciously by the 2 women, he then proceeds to dictate that there will be no photos and talking about himself and how he is 'coming out' (yet doesn't want photos so he won't get in trouble with his partner). Do you not see it? He has hijacked the entire night.

Also he is not 'coming out', he is hiding this from his family, and from his partner. That is the very opposite of actually coming out. He's hiding and going behind his partner's back.

He is utterly selfish and a terrible awful friend to OP's female friend, and OP's friend needs to dump him as he is no friend when he doesn't care how uncomfortable he make someone feel, everything is all me, me, me with him. He is awful! A typical male chauvinist with male privilege.

DuckyNoMates · 22/03/2022 08:21

Maybe ask if they want to go to the pub on a night before then to meet the group and ease into their true self? Then the event won't be their big reveal.

Brefugee · 22/03/2022 08:24

Let's assume that friend of friend is a genuine transwoman*. I don't think it is beyond the bounds of possiblity that a night out with a friend and friend of a friend is a bad time to try out wearing a dress in public for the first time. (is it an evening event?). I can imagine that it is exciting for a transwoman who has worn gender conforming clothes all their life to plan an outfit in this detail (not sure sundress is appropriate for clubbing or whatever?). Anyway.
In OPs position I'd say, yah sure you can come. But i will take as many photos as i like, i will warn you when I'm taking them but i will upload what i like and tag friend on my social media. Up to you to keep out of photos.

The toilet issue? I'd handle that as it comes. As a woman who has used men's toilets in preference to peeing my pants (and with appropriate warnings) in the past, and will continue to do so, i don't get excited about who uses which toilet. I do have issue with how some people use toilets, staring, blocking the sinks, banging on doors, peeing on the seat, not flushing/brushing away skid marks. This is not restricted to men in women's toilets, and up to now I have not experienced it from a man in a dress. But we all have different experiences, so i can't judge.
My feeling? a transwoman* isn't the same as a bloke putting on a dress just because. One thing i have experienced is butch lesbians being jostled and questioned about being in ladies toilets (i know a few, it's just how it is.) Up to now it has not ended in any trouble, but one did offer to drop her pants and let people get up close and personal. (personally I'm not a fan of that but it did stop the questioning)

When i am out with people i don't really know, i just go with the flow, but if they start trying to dominate things, i use my judgement if I'm going to hang around for it, tell them to pipe down a bit because it's not all about them, or whatever. So basically, go with the flow, suck it and see but always have an exit plan (which i always do anyway if i go out).

In OP's friends shoes? I would tell their trans friend that it is unfair to keep this huge part of their life quiet from their girlfriend. That is a massive issue for me, more than most of the rest of it, tbh. I couldn't stay friends for long with someone lying to their partner about that.

*rather than a bloke using currently badly articulated legislation to put on a dress to annoy (or worse) women.

PearPickingPorky · 22/03/2022 08:24

No, I’m not worried about lesbians in women’s loos, because lesbians don’t have a track record of raping and murdering women.

Men, as a group, do.

And unfortunately, they don’t come with signs, signalling which are the dodgy ones.

If one were looking for signs that a man is a danger to women, I'd say boundary violation is a sign.

Nincomepoop · 22/03/2022 08:25

Just tell him the night is about you and your friend catching up and having thought about it you’d rather not share the experience with someone you don’t know. Offer no further explanation. Just a firm no he can’t come. Go and enjoy the evening with your friend.

PinaColada123456 · 22/03/2022 08:25

@BiscuitLover3678

It sounds like you had no issue with a man coming but someone who dresses as a woman and is probably more feminine you now have an issue with?

I’m sure this person will be highly sensitive and not be using the toilet at the same time as you anyway because he/she will be sh**scared about all that they are going through.

Honestly I used to be gender critical but mumsnet has made me realised how freaking transphobic so many people are.

@BiscuitLover3678 It sounds like you didn't RTFT or at least all of the OP's posts as they clearly feel the night has been hijacked, it's not just about the fake 'coming out' that clearly isn't a coming out at all.

I’m sure this person will be highly sensitive and not be using the toilet at the same time as you anyway because he/she will be shscared about all that they are going through.

Wow you truly are so naive, so oblivious. He clearly lacks a sensitivity chip, and has the (over) confidence to hijack a night and turn it all about him, you were born yesterday if you truly think he is going to wear a dress and high heels and go to the mens instead of the womens. He clearly doesn't seem to be suffering at all, let alone 'going through' anything. He is bolshy and doesn't give a shit. You seem so incredibly sheltered and naive to be so gullible and think so well of him. Please wake up. It is people like you that turn people GC.

Pyjamagame · 22/03/2022 08:25

What exactly is it, about putting a dress or a skirt on, that makes a man a woman? And what do we do about all those kilt-wearing Scots men?

Beefcurtains79 · 22/03/2022 08:25

This reply has been deleted

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AngelinaFibres · 22/03/2022 08:25

@Anansiskunk

Absolute fuckery isn't it.
Yes totally ridiculous. If you are not comfortable pull out of the evening. You do not have to facilitate this .
Joinedforthis22 · 22/03/2022 08:25

Seriously this is just one side screaming transgender and the other screaming homophobe and those of us in the middle being labeled either for asking questions in an attempt to understand this new and baffling world.

I understand it's an emotive issue but educating is the way not reporting and shouting down who you view as your opponent.

Enjoy the bun fight you've created OP, I think that was potentially what you wanted.

justaftb · 22/03/2022 08:26

@Nellle

Yes, that's literally what I said.

Sounds like OP (and OP's friend) will choose not be friends with this person based on their gender identity.

I would choose not to be friends with such a person because of their "gender identity" because gender identity is a load of hokum. Who would want to be friends with someone who coerces you to go along with their delusion that they are a "woman"? He wants to control what you say and what you think. His idea of what a woman is is reductive and steeped in stereotypes - heels and a sun dress...oooh, spinny-spinny-head-tilt the night away - "I'm a REAL woman!!!" ! He's "excited" about going out dressed like this. I bet he gets "excited" thinking about it all right.

If he's really a woman, why does he need to dress in a certain way to signal it? I'm a woman. Can't remember the last time I wore heels and a sun dress but no one mistakes me for a man. I wonder why that is?

Jeez. Congratulations to all those who give such narcissistic, misogynists a free pass. Your "Cool Girl" badges are in the post.

AngelinaFibres · 22/03/2022 08:27

@Pyjamagame

What exactly is it, about putting a dress or a skirt on, that makes a man a woman? And what do we do about all those kilt-wearing Scots men?
They don't tend to want to use our toilets or changing rooms. They are Scots MEN . They are not performing being a woman.
PinaColada123456 · 22/03/2022 08:27

@BiscuitLover3678

What if this was a woman who was gay? Would you still be scared of her coming and using the toilet with you? So messed up.
@BiscuitLover3678 Wow, yes you are totally messed up if you think a gay woman ceases being a woman. What is wrong with you, are you really this lacking in common sense and critical thinking skills that you equate men to a lesbian? Are you honestly, genuinely serious that you think a lesbian is like a man?? ??? ? You're embarrassing yourself.
ScreamingMeMe · 22/03/2022 08:28

@BiscuitLover3678

Having a penis does not mean you have an urge to go into the toilet and perve on women. What does this say about your perception of gay women? Because that’s homophobic and also disgusting.
Gay women have penises????
Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 08:28

don't really understand why the word "transphobic" is being thrown around. The very vast majority of posters haven't offered any comment on the actual transitioning of this person (there have been a few) but focused on the potential of their expectation to use same sex spaces. The theme of the responses is very much "do what the hell you want but don't invade our protected spaces".

Welcome to being a woman standing up for her sex based rights to privacy and dignity aka being a "TERF/transphobe" in the eyes of trans activists and their supporters. That's really all it takes. That is why women get the nasty shit they do, because these male people never like hearing the word no.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 08:30

If one were looking for signs that a man is a danger to women, I'd say boundary violation is a sign.

It's a red flag.

PinaColada123456 · 22/03/2022 08:33

@BiscuitLover3678

Having a penis does not mean you have an urge to go into the toilet and perve on women. What does this say about your perception of gay women? Because that’s homophobic and also disgusting.
@BiscuitLover3678 So in that case since having a penis is not threat to women, lets remove womens toilets altogether? Is that what you're saying?

And again what is with your comments about gay women? You do realise gay women are ........ WOMEN ? Right? Or are you really this confused that you think a lesbian is a man?

Lovemusic33 · 22/03/2022 08:33

Have they actually said they are going to use the woman’s toilets? Not all trans women use womens toilets, some may use the disabled toilets (not as though I agree with this either). The toilet thing has never really bothered me but I understand why it does bother some people. Womens toilets have individual cubicles, you go in and lock the door, come out, wash hands and leave, I don’t feel at risk using toilets unless it’s a public toilet where there’s no one else about (one of this dodgy looking ones you get in a carpark).

I have several trans friends, both male to female and female to male, I will happily go out in public with them, I also have a cross dressing male friend (not trans) who I meet up with often, he often turns up wearing a skirt, he uses the mens toilets because he’s a man.

The thing I don’t understand is ‘the big reveal’, why do they need to do this? It feels like they are looking for attention and expectance when really people don’t give a shit.