AIBU? Trans friend....

[OrchardBlack]

Have NC'd for this.

So a close friend of mine (female) and I booked tickets to an event in our town some time ago, due to take place in a few weeks. Both excited and looking forward to it , all good.

A few weeks ago she asks me if a male , straight friend of hers can also join, no problem, the more the merrier. I've never met him.

Except it now transpires that he has (quite suddenly from what I gather) said he is transitioning to be a woman and will use this night as his 'coming out'. He has messaged my friend saying that he's going to wear a sun dress and heels and he's nervous but excited too. He has also said we are to refer to him by his female name. My friend says he is currently in a relationship with a woman.

Now my friend is saying she is finding this all a lot to take on so suddenly as she's known him for many years as his male name and never even seen him with makeup on. I asked if he would be using the women's toilets on our night out, she doesn't know but I can only assume he is.

I feel very uncomfortable, as does my friend. I am fully supportive of people choosing to live how they wish, I just can't help feeling he's high-jacked our night. He isn't out as trans to any of his family etc so he has said no photos of the night etc. I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

She says she doesn't feel like she can talk to him about it and is concocting a plan to say she has covid and giving me my money back so we don't go. I'm dissapointed as I was looking forward to it.

AIBU to be deflated and a bit annoyed??

OP, can your friend just say to her friend, that both of you aren't comfortable with that, it was night that you were both looking forward to and him coming dressed as a women will totally change the whole thing, explain that you are a bit wigged out by it, and that they would rather he didn't go. If he is her friend, surely he would understand, or just come as a man.

In other (fewer) words: "no thanks, not interested" (maybe with a smile thrown in for free if you feel charitable)

I find it interesting that this thread is attracting so many visitors

Bunbury wonders how many screenshots of it there are on twitter & Facebook

@Lovelyricepudding

SolasAnla if they are abused then they should call the police. We have laws against abuse.

We do, and women are frequently told that if we experience any abuse from males using female facilities, it's all fine as we can report it to the police, using said laws. We are also told:

• the risk of any male assaulting or spying on a woman in a female-only space is negligible if that male is a transwoman

• the harm done to transwomen by refusing them entry to female-only spaces is far worse than anything that a male sexual predator could do by abusing self-ID of gender to gain entry

So we're all supposed to nod along and believe that (a) the police will attend promptly and apprehend the malefactor and (b) that action will make everything better for the woman assaulted and she won't have any enduring trauma or other issues from the assault.

@BiscuitLover3678

What if this was a woman who was gay? Would you still be scared of her coming and using the toilet with you? So messed up.

False equivalence.

@ItsLisaLou

Oh look another mumsnet thread where everyone hates on transgender people and thinks they’re all hiding in toilets waiting to pounce on straight women, how refreshing

@ItsLisaLou No one is "hating on transgender people". We're hating on entitled, selfish and male-privileged men.

And you clearly don't get it. What is the difference between "thinks they’re (transwomen) all hiding in toilets waiting to pounce on straight women", and "thinks they’re (men) all hiding in toilets waiting to pounce on straight women"?

None. They are BOTH MEN. Why do you suppose womens toilets exist, in the first place? To give women privacy, dignity and safety from male bodied (that includes transwomen) people. If we took your line of thought, we'd abolish women's toilets because men according to you, aren't all hiding in toilets waiting to pounce on women.

Try to use some critical thinking ItsLisaLou .

Dressing as a woman makes you feminine?

How does a person dress as a woman?
Is sex determined by clothing now?

Also what do lesbians have to do with this? The person in question is a transgender male therefore not a lesbian.

It's depressing that there are many who believe being a woman is determined by the clothes we wear and the performance of femininity as dictated by patriarchal stereotypes.

@Tabasco007

OP, can your friend just say to her friend, that both of you aren't comfortable with that, it was night that you were both looking forward to and him coming dressed as a women will totally change the whole thing, explain that you are a bit wigged out by it, and that they would rather he didn't go. If he is her friend, surely he would understand, or just come as a man.

Ooof don't do this. This is so naive. Prepare for some narc rage if you do this!!

Just tell him that neither of your are going anymore and you’ve sold your tickets.

This person isn’t even your friend. You don’t have to have your night ruined by a stranger who is already making it about themselves, don’t go. FYI he isn’t a lesbian he is a man with a penis so can’t be an actual lesbian. Actual lesbians don’t have a penis, they are also not men so the risks are not the same people lumping lesbians in with TW are offensive homophobes. Dispicable.

Can you uninvite him? I would. It's not fair to hijack your night out!

The easiest way out of this is for your friend to tell this man that it's just a night out for the two of you to catch up so not open to others on this occasion. He will possibly suspect that there's more to it but that's his problem and not yours.

You don't have to be part of his performance just because that's what he wants to happen.

And once more for the hard of understanding, it is not transphobic to wish to protect women's rights and single sex spaces.

If your friend is going to make excuses and not go, you could still go with someone else. It's a shame the night is cancelled. If there were more of you going it might have been ok, you could have had a laugh, but with only two of you plus tw it would have been awkward and cringe, especially as you don't know him. I imagine you would be expected to fawn over him all night.

[quote BiscuitLover3678]@titchy I can see you have very strong views about transpeople but don’t make clearly ridiculous comments about me being homophobic. Obviously I’m not because I’m saying how ridiculous you are. 😂 I’m NOT the one assuming somebody is coming into the toilet to do anything unsavoury. 😂[/quote]
But you suggested that someone would feel awkward with a gay woman using the loo - why? That's just weird. Feeling awkward with a man using the loo is perfectly reasonable and the reason toilets are sex separated in the first place. Separating by sexuality - well you suggested it might be uncomfortable and I really don't understand why or what sort of person thinks it might.

@PinkFluffyUnicornSlippers

Just tell him that neither of your are going anymore and you’ve sold your tickets.

Why should OP miss out on a night she arranged and was looking forward to?

“Sorry, XY, that doesn’t work for me, so no, you can’t join us after all.”

He’s a self-absorbed jerk if he thinks it’s ok to hijack someone else’s night out and turn into his big night, with rules he sets.

Make entitlement written all over it.

Why don't you just advise the Trans friend to visit the loo before they leave the house for the evening? Then they won't have to worry about toilets at the venue.

Having to compromise yourself and be super organised in order to get round awkward male-centric constructs- tell them it's all good practise for being an actual woman.

@PutinIsAWarCriminal

I think YABU in jumping to conclusions. My teen dd has a trans (girl) friend, and all it means is that she is now addressed by a girl's name and wears a girl's school uniform. My dd and her friends had a sensible conversation with her about how uncomfortable and unsafe girls would feel about having a male in the girls' toilets and changing rooms, especiallyone who is bi. Trans women doesn't or shouldn't have to be about appropriation and wolf in sheep's clothing, and her coming out on your night put is an opportunity for you to be listened to. What is particularly special about the night out? It isn't a significant birthday or hen do, so I don't understand the comments about high jacking. Would you feel the same if he was coming out as gay, or are you worried about them attracting negative attention?

@PutinIsAWarCriminal OP isn't jumping to conclusions. He has already stated what he intends to do. Whether the night is 'significant' or not, this man was invited along graciously by the 2 women, he then proceeds to dictate that there will be no photos and talking about himself and how he is 'coming out' (yet doesn't want photos so he won't get in trouble with his partner). Do you not see it? He has hijacked the entire night.

Also he is not 'coming out', he is hiding this from his family, and from his partner. That is the very opposite of actually coming out. He's hiding and going behind his partner's back.

Lastly, yes, I would feel the same if he were coming out as gay, when he is going behind his girlfriend's back and deceiving her. I could not be party to such lies and deception.

As others have noted, a sundress at this time of year v unwise.

Also what do lesbians have to do with this?

Because the OP said the person in question was attracted to women and that's why she was uncomfortable with them using the female bathroom. As a wider issue it doesn't, as others have pointed out it's to do with male on female violence but that's not what the OP was referring to.

I can’t help feeling that if it was socially acceptable for both sexes to wear whatever clothes and shoes they like, have whatever hairstyle they like, wear make-up or not it they wish and play with whatever they like as children, then some of these dysphoria issues would go away. If everyone could be more tolerant then people could comfortably use toilets according to their biology not clothing and people would be happier and more inclusive.

Men who identify as women - what exactly is it about women they are identifying with anyway?

@BiscuitLover3678

Having a penis does not mean you have an urge to go into the toilet and perve on women. What does this say about your perception of gay women? Because that’s homophobic and also disgusting.

Er... my best friend is a gay woman. We've shared a bed platonically. She does not have a penis

@BiscuitLover3678

What if this was a woman who was gay? Would you still be scared of her coming and using the toilet with you? So messed up.

Absolutely disgusting. False equivalence. Women attracted to women are not the same as men, and do not have male patterns of violence or sex offending.

Give your head a wobble and make a genuine case for allowing men in women's spaces, if you can.

I don't really understand why the word "transphobic" is being thrown around. The very vast majority of posters haven't offered any comment on the actual transitioning of this person (there have been a few) but focused on the potential of their expectation to use same sex spaces. The theme of the responses is very much "do what the hell you want but don't invade our protected spaces". And there's plenty of justification of why women feel that way. You don't have to read many threads on the subject to find women telling their own horrific stories about why they don't feel comfortable in such spaces around anyone with a penis regardless if that person looks suspicious etc. or not. And there's plenty more women on such threads discussing the need to protect these spaces completely, which means drawing a hard line in the sand. It isn't about this particular person, it's about the blurring of lines. Nobody is saying this particular person appears to be a predator.

Men who identify as women - what exactly is it about women they are identifying with anyway?

Pillow fights; objectifying the female body experience; being objectified by men.

That's pretty much what I've gleaned from reading accounts from TW themselves.

None of them seem to have the urge to wear jeans amd t shirts or take on the emotional load in a relationship nor because the default family carers.

It's about sex. As so many things with men often are.

[quote BiscuitLover3678]@titchy the whole concern the op had was that the friend is attracted to women. Literally nothing to do with how his/her genitals are looking.[/quote]
No maybe you haven't read the thread properly. OP is concerned that her night out becomes solely to provide an audience to her friend's friend's big gender reveal. Which will include tagging along with them when they go to the loo. His being straight is irrelevant as an indicator of his likelihood of assaulting OP (except to his partner), but does suggest this could be a sexually motivated desire. One that MN cannot name....