Trans athlete wins in female swimming race

[bonfireheart]

www.lbc.co.uk/news/female-swimmers-transgender-lia-thomas-podium-protest-atlanta-result/

Don't know how true this story is but wonder if the public reaction to stuff like this will become more common.

So does this mean Thomas had a dip in performance while actually transitioning, but now is getting back to previous – male – form?

Could be. Could be due to hormone treatment, could be due to mental health and distraction.

However, the entire house of cards falls when you consider no other male can just start competing in a female competition because they have to take medication that reduces their performance, or because they have low testosterone.

It should never have signified that males ever could participate in female sport, and it is certainly not a consulation prize.

There are too many variables with Thomas to really draw any conclusions - a change of distance/event, a strong suspicion that 100% is not given in every race, an admission that they no longer train as often/hard, history littered with bright young things who were going to be the next big thing that drop out, get over taken by late flourishing peers, get injured, get diverted by other pursuits.... As our friend with unclean footwear might say no-one has measured it. How can we know if a drop in performance is due to reduced testosterone or sudden on set of lady brain. For what it's worth I don't think anyone who believes that there is a difference between male and female performance has claimed reducing testosterone would have no impact, just that it is far from the whole picture.

[quote SamphiretheStickerist]@DameHelena I am currently pondering looking for footage of Will to compare to Lia. I want to see if the swimming action, not it's effectiveness, its action are the same. The foot kicks, arm shapes etc. because they won't change, they are physically set by the body.

I suspect, from what I have seen of footage of Lia, that I will see far less foot action - that has already been noted by many but I would like to see the Will comparator.

And some quite robust evidence shows that hormones don't do much in a short space of time and are not universally effective at reducing perfomance anyway!

This one is an easy read, doesn't have any nasty figures and stats to argue over. It has pros and cons mentioned in the same blunt and factual manner and actually discusses transmen too!

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764[/quote]
Thanks Samphire.

@Helleofabore

So does this mean Thomas had a dip in performance while actually transitioning, but now is getting back to previous – male – form?

Could be. Could be due to hormone treatment, could be due to mental health and distraction.

However, the entire house of cards falls when you consider no other male can just start competing in a female competition because they have to take medication that reduces their performance, or because they have low testosterone.

It should never have signified that males ever could participate in female sport, and it is certainly not a consulation prize.

Sorry, I'm not getting what However, the entire house of cards falls when you consider no other male can just start competing in a female competition because they have to take medication that reduces their performance, or because they have low testosterone. means.

@Runningupthecurtains

There are too many variables with Thomas to really draw any conclusions - a change of distance/event, a strong suspicion that 100% is not given in every race, an admission that they no longer train as often/hard, history littered with bright young things who were going to be the next big thing that drop out, get over taken by late flourishing peers, get injured, get diverted by other pursuits.... As our friend with unclean footwear might say no-one has measured it. How can we know if a drop in performance is due to reduced testosterone or sudden on set of lady brain. For what it's worth I don't think anyone who believes that there is a difference between male and female performance has claimed reducing testosterone would have no impact, just that it is far from the whole picture.

I didn't know Thomas no longer trained as often/hard. I bet the women who came 2nd and 3rd do...

Sorry, I'm not getting what However, the entire house of cards falls when you consider no other male can just start competing in a female competition because they have to take medication that reduces their performance, or because they have low testosterone. means.

Apologies.

I mean, that if Thomas or any transitioned male is claiming that they should have access to female sports based on their 'life saving' hormone treatment lowering their performance, then that argument needs to include other males as well.

Because other athletes have had to decide between continuing the sport they love at the level they worked hard to achieve and taking a life saving medication that will lower their performance. Why is it that 'transitioned males' get to use that as an excuse to compete against females? No other male is allowed to. No adult is allowed to join the under 16's because of their decision to take medication.

And if it is driven by 'hormone levels' then any males with low testosterone due to health issues should also be allowed to join the female teams if their testosterone is low enough.

Again, if one group of males can use these arguments, why not the others. All because of magic words 'I am a woman'?

@DameHelena I have certainly seen a quote from Thomas to that effect mentioned but I'm at work at the moment so can't dig about to find it. It may be true, it may be a misconstrued but of sarcasm or it may be a myth/lie/fabrication. If my poor febble lady brain remembers later I'll have a dig about and see if I can trace the quote. In the meantime someone else might be able find it for you.

@Helleofabore

Sorry, I'm not getting what However, the entire house of cards falls when you consider no other male can just start competing in a female competition because they have to take medication that reduces their performance, or because they have low testosterone. means.

Apologies.

I mean, that if Thomas or any transitioned male is claiming that they should have access to female sports based on their 'life saving' hormone treatment lowering their performance, then that argument needs to include other males as well.

Because other athletes have had to decide between continuing the sport they love at the level they worked hard to achieve and taking a life saving medication that will lower their performance. Why is it that 'transitioned males' get to use that as an excuse to compete against females? No other male is allowed to. No adult is allowed to join the under 16's because of their decision to take medication.

And if it is driven by 'hormone levels' then any males with low testosterone due to health issues should also be allowed to join the female teams if their testosterone is low enough.

Again, if one group of males can use these arguments, why not the others. All because of magic words 'I am a woman'?

I see; thank you.

[quote SamphiretheStickerist]@loopycurtains he will come back and say "But how much of that is down to sociological factors? Has anyone measured that?"

He will consider that a Gotcha! - again.

And I will repeat, not with any large cohorts as it is not physically possible to do in a way that would get past Ethics (think about how you would remove sociological input for one cohort!).

I will also repeat the hint about twin studies. But @greasyshoes won't acknowledge that, again!

It is tedious, he has a very small circle of query, and yet remains persistent![/quote]
I'm really not sure what point he's trying to prove. If the difference in performance turned out not to conform to Occam's razor and be due (or largely due) to the blatantly obvious (and well verified by science and statistics) fact that humans are dimorphic , and instead partially to some combination of sociological factors....that still wouldn't make allowing someone born and raised as a boy to compete in womens events fair. That would then be subject to the same reasoning as why it's so wrong for transwomen to be considered for 'women in science' or 'women engineer of the year' type of awards.

Irish former track & field champion runner Sonia O'Sullivan has written an opinion piece for the Irish Times today (24/03/2022), prompted by Lia Thomas' NCAA victory.

The headline, "Transgender athletes cannot be allowed to compete in women’s sport," is unfortunate, but that will have been the choice of an editor. Likewise, the article repeatedly says "transgender female athletes" when it means "transgender male athletes." Again, could be an editorial issue.

www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/sonia-o-sullivan-transgender-athletes-cannot-be-allowed-to-compete-in-women-s-sport-1.4834586

Comments were open when it was published online this morning and the ones I saw were supportive of O'Sullivan's views. They were removed after about an hour.

Some reaction on Twitter: twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1506907427446222850

Also, the interview with sports scientist Ross Tucker that she refers to was on Newstalk's Off The Ball programme on Tuesday, it is here:

@zanahoria just started a thread about O'Sullivan's piece here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4512723-Sonia-OSullivan-Another-Olympian-Speaks-Up

Thank you for links.