Trans athlete wins in female swimming race

[bonfireheart]

www.lbc.co.uk/news/female-swimmers-transgender-lia-thomas-podium-protest-atlanta-result/

Don't know how true this story is but wonder if the public reaction to stuff like this will become more common.

Bloody hell! That's terrible. May I post that again, with slightly warmer, fat arthritic fingers?

As I said earlier, greasy you are asking for the impossible. A study that removes all socialisation would be deemed to be cruel, harmful.

And I gave you the easiest way to see similar, non harful results. You just chose to apply your illogic and dismiss it. Maybe apply your towering intellect and run an outline of a possible, non harmful study past me and I'll see what I can do!

Actually, I'll give you a hint: twin studies

@DownWhichOfLate

Go on then greasyshoes - I’ll give you a starter. Look up “Q angle” differences between men and women. That isn’t determined by socialisation.

Too lat @DownWhichOfLate That has already been rejected, ignored, glossed over. Greasy isn't interested in acknowledging biological facts or their effects on sporting performance. He thinks he has a Gotcha! and no amount of explaining is going to dissuade him!

Oh! I must have missed it, thanks. It’s a bug bear of mine as I have quite an extreme q angle. This means that despite training a lot harder than my overweight husband he’s still a better athlete than me! But it’s probably socialisation rather than the discrepancy in training, diet, body fat, bmi (all favourable to me, and yet…)

I haven't resorted to Shakira yet, you are more than welcome to post her educational tome regarding the Q angle

Hmm? What is that? (I’m sorry, recovering from covid and a bit of brain fog here is making it hard for me to keep up!)

Oh don't! I'll get moaned at... but here you go Hips Don't Lie

@greasyshoes

To answer your question. Many multi cohort longitudinal studies have been done and the results remain the same. Men have a physical advantage in many areas, notably speed and strength.

You can do one of these studies yourself. Look up the male and femal records of a range of sports and compare and contrast male and female results over say four decades.

I don't deny that men achieve better results in sports. The data is there and it shows men achieve faster running times, faster swimming times, etc.

However, I haven't seen a study which explains why men's athletic achievements are greater than women's. Everyone is just assuming it's a biological advantage, rather than due to some social factor. That's the problem.

😂

Haha! Thanks Samphire - I’ll have that in my head all day now…

@DownWhichOfLate

Oh! I must have missed it, thanks. It’s a bug bear of mine as I have quite an extreme q angle. This means that despite training a lot harder than my overweight husband he’s still a better athlete than me! But it’s probably socialisation rather than the discrepancy in training, diet, body fat, bmi (all favourable to me, and yet…)

Well, clearly (according to some) you just aren't in the right psychological space - either that or you just aren't trying hard enough

I know, right?! If only I could sort out my attitude. Then I could significantly reduce my training, eat all the crap, drink alcohol, and have quite an obvious stomach BUT be faster and stronger.

Tsk. We women, eh?

Not RTFT, so apologies if I'm repeating, but Lia has been reported to the authorities for indecent exposure

twitter.com/Flashmaggie/status/1505287520992600066?s=20&t=Sr9xeTMNVOd4TEj-p6ChcQ

Almost feel like I'm derailing the thread, but this is actually back on topic.

Good piece by Colin Wright (known associate of Emma Hilton) about the protests at the swimming event.

Gender Ideology Is on Life Support. My Day Watching Lia Thomas Swim

I found the counter-protesters to be well-intentioned. Most were silent, some were polite, and a few were snarky and verbally aggressive. But what they all shared was passion as a substitute for knowledge. After very little questioning it became clear that they knew next to nothing about the topic they were so passionately out defending.

One of the counter-protesters seemed interested in data, confidently asserting that there wasn’t any good data demonstrating that transgender women who have lowered their testosterone levels have an unfair advantage over female athletes. Being close to the data on this issue, I responded that their claim simply wasn’t true, and that there were currently two literature reviews published in the most prestigious sports medicine journals in the world—Sports Medicine, and the British Journal of Sports Medicine. These studies corroborated each other’s results demonstrating that hormonal suppression does very little to close the large performance gap between male and female athletes. And, though it doesn’t really matter, the first author of the latter review is a trans woman.

The activists had somehow never heard of these review papers. “Were they peer reviewed?” they asked. Yes. “By who?” The journal editors and expert reviewers they selected. “How many people were in the studies?” These are review papers, so they include all individuals from every study on the topic. “Can you show me the studies?” Yes, here. That is how far I got with one of the activists before a security guard instructed me to go back to “my” side of the road to join the SWS protesters.

It was shocking to me that people with such a tenuous-to-nonexistent grasp of the relevant facts and data could not only be out protesting with such passion, but doing so while purporting to care about facts and data. When you haven’t spent even three minutes on Google Scholar doing a basic literature review on a subject, you shouldn’t hold such strong opinions.

"When you haven’t spent even three minutes on Google Scholar doing a basic literature review on a subject, you shouldn’t hold such strong opinions."

Well indeed, but their feelings don't care about your facts. Facts are transphobic

Surely if Lia has shrunk so much on hormones it would be extremely dangerous to offer these to children or they'll all shrink to primary school height.

The photo wasn't a protest.

The women who came second and third were fully supportive of Lia.

When she competed in the men's category, she was near the top. Her ratings went down to the mid 400s only after she started hormone treatment - exactly what you'd expect. In 2018, she had top 8 finishes in 500, 1000, and 1650-yard freestyle. She was 10 seconds behind the male record, now she is 10 seconds behind the female record.

Lia did not win all her races and setting a pool record is good, but not great. She's not setting national or State records, even. She got thrashed by a bunch of cis women in other races.

As Martina Navratilova said, even if you think the rules are wrong, Lia did not break them or "cheat."

Kate Ledecky's all-time record in this event is almost 10 seconds faster - 4:24.06.

It's possible to have a reasonable discussion that she shouldn't have been grandfathered in to this event, or even look at trans women in women's sport without being transphobic, but I've not seen that happen.

It's possible to have a reasonable discussion that she shouldn't have been grandfathered in to this event, or even look at trans women in women's sport without being transphobic, but I've not seen that happen.

It's completely normal for women to be highly fucked off that a male is competing in their sport and taking the place of a woman.

Get over yourself.

The women who came second and third were fully supportive of Lia.

Yeah! Cos it's so very wasy to speak out when your career, sponsorhsip, will end when you do.

Women are angry about this. If you think it is transphobic to object to a man competing in women's sport then that is your issue, you are the one with an error of perception, a warped take on reality.

Get over yourself, indeed!

Kate Ledecky's all-time record in this event is almost 10 seconds faster - 4:24.06.

And she swam at her very, very best to achieve that time. Thomas has not yet swum this race flat out... as anyone can see, even with no swimming experience.

"That was so easy, I was cruising." speaks for itself!

Lia is now competing in different events and times are all over the place. This may be due to Lia being a .mediocre swimmer or perhaps slow times are when it doesn't count or would be politically difficult. It doesn't matter though as Lia is male and should not be competing against female swimmers. It doesn't matter if Lia is a good or a bad swimmer or even if they are the incredible shrinking swimmer being described on Twitter, Lia is male and has no place in female swimming.

However, I haven't seen a study which explains why men's athletic achievements are greater than women's. Everyone is just assuming it's a biological advantage, rather than due to some social factor. That's the problem

Just because you haven't seen papers on the different biomechanics and physiology of males and females doesn't mean they don't exist.

Given your apparent interest, your lack of having seen them seems to be wilful blindness.

If everyone insists that naming sex is transphobic, then yes it is impossible to make an argument that is not transphobic. Male athletes should not be in a female category. One day perhaps we will reach a point in all areas of life where sex is completely unimportant to talk about, but that is not the sane thing as pretending it doesn't exist - in fact it's the opposite. There would be zero drama and if all trans athletes were like Izaak Henig and just swam in their sex category. It does nothing to change or discount their life choices or their human rights. And if anyone were to harass Izaak or Lia for doing that, I would be so happy to support them 100%.

However, I haven't seen a study which explains why men's athletic achievements are greater than women's. Everyone is just assuming it's a biological advantage, rather than due to some social factor. That's the problem

I was thinking about that again and it made me smile. Almost every sports science student conducts a study into the differences between male and female biomechanics / physiology. Why? Because it is easy to do, rarely needs much of an Ethics pass and every University has the facilities to undertake such an investigation.

Sociologically there are an equal number of investigations across many areas of life. Correlations, causations, all sorts of measures are taken, published, discussed, debated.

But hey! What do people whose livelihoods are discussing such stuff know about anything? Pshaw!

However, I haven't seen a study which explains why men's athletic achievements are greater than women's. Everyone is just assuming it's a biological advantage, rather than due to some social factor. That's the problem

I have a really hard time believing someone typed this out loud.

@SamphiretheStickerist

The women who came second and third were fully supportive of Lia.

Yeah! Cos it's so very wasy to speak out when your career, sponsorhsip, will end when you do.

Women are angry about this. If you think it is transphobic to object to a man competing in women's sport then that is your issue, you are the one with an error of perception, a warped take on reality.

Get over yourself, indeed!

I believe the athletes, not you. I think it's deeply unpleasant that you would ascribe ulterior motives to them.

I suggest you read what gay athelete Erica Sullivan has to say. This is wholehearted support from someone who considers her struggles to be similar.

"Why I'm Proud to Support Trans Athletes like Lia Thomas"

www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192