Trans athlete wins in female swimming race

[bonfireheart]

www.lbc.co.uk/news/female-swimmers-transgender-lia-thomas-podium-protest-atlanta-result/

Don't know how true this story is but wonder if the public reaction to stuff like this will become more common.

‘The "women only" category could continue to exist, without any transgender women or transgender men, with the justification being that it promotes female participation in sport.’

@greasyshoes oh that’s so very generous of you, thanks so much for allowing us to participate in sport, so incredibly grateful.

@greasyshoes

Wow greasy you now accept what we have all been saying, 2 sporting categories; open and female only.

That's not what I've been reading. All the commentary I've seen on Lia Thomas has argued that she should compete in a "male" category.

Id be happy with female only and then open

@334bu

Wow greasy you now accept what we have all been saying, 2 sporting categories; open and female only.

Yeah thats been said for years now

On here…

I'd personally like to thank greasy. Not sure if he's a troll, an incel or genuinely just really thick.
But his constant barrage of stupidity is bringing forward an army of eloquent, erudite women who are patiently and unendingly destroying his nonsense.
As someone who knows it's nonsense but is in a process of trying to learn the facts and understand the arguments, this is an education for me for which I am so grateful.

@greasyshoes

Trans women do not belong in womens sports as they are not women. That's not transphobic, it's a fact. They should never be allowed to compete in womens sports. The biological makeup should determine the category they compete in, and his would be male.

Although I have said I am unconvinced that women can't compete against transwomen, I have also seen that there are a lot of passionate people who believe that it's unfair to have transwomen and women in the same category. I thought of a possible solution today.

In terms of respecting trans women who wish to identify and live as women, I think instead of having "female" and "male" categories in sport, there could simply be a "universal" category along with a separate "female" category.

The "universal" category would allow anyone to compete... male, female, disabled, transgender women, transgender men, etc., etc. Given that men generally achieve the best results (regardless of the cause), in practice, this category would likely be dominated by men (which is fine, because this category is effectively replacing the men-only category).

The "women only" category could continue to exist, without any transgender women or transgender men, with the justification being that it promotes female participation in sport.

Nah. Just need to clarify and lay out in explicit detail what is already there.

Two categories...

X and Y based upon which chromosome a person has. We could even call the categories, oh, I don't know. Men and women?

@SamphiretheStickerist

Oh do sod off with the mansplaining! That, and variations on it, have been mooted squillions of times! Do you think that because we are female we are stupid?

You remain unconvinced of some very basic biology, despite what some very eminent scientists say on the matter, and expect to be taken seriously on anything?

Nope! You have very successfully destroyed any semblance of your own credibility.

I know right! It's beyond tedious.

Greasy - Who gives a fuck whether or not the men's category is open to everyone. The point is, women will have no fucking chance. So you have to protect women's sport.

And DadJoke, no female athlete is going to be happy being usurped by a cheating man. Forget it.

@greasyshoes

Trans women do not belong in womens sports as they are not women. That's not transphobic, it's a fact. They should never be allowed to compete in womens sports. The biological makeup should determine the category they compete in, and his would be male.

Although I have said I am unconvinced that women can't compete against transwomen, I have also seen that there are a lot of passionate people who believe that it's unfair to have transwomen and women in the same category. I thought of a possible solution today.

In terms of respecting trans women who wish to identify and live as women, I think instead of having "female" and "male" categories in sport, there could simply be a "universal" category along with a separate "female" category.

The "universal" category would allow anyone to compete... male, female, disabled, transgender women, transgender men, etc., etc. Given that men generally achieve the best results (regardless of the cause), in practice, this category would likely be dominated by men (which is fine, because this category is effectively replacing the men-only category).

The "women only" category could continue to exist, without any transgender women or transgender men, with the justification being that it promotes female participation in sport.

Did you even read this thread??

FFS you really need to read more about this topic before posting. This alternative has been discussed endlessly.

@spacehardware

Greasy arrived there with his special man logic though, so his opinion is extra special

@greasyshoes if you think it is likely that the enormous list of physical difference between men and women only cause a small fraction of the difference in sporting performance between men and women why do you think the difference is more or less consistent across the entire range of events? Surely if societal attitudes account for 99% of differences the gap would be much closer in events that women have been able to participate in for over a century e.g. the 100m than in events that were only recently added to the female event rota e.g. the pole vault. What about things such as gymnastics and dance that are seen traditionally feminine pursuits many more girls train in ballet than boys so why aren't girls lifting other girls? How come "unmanly" dancer boys that have turned their backs on "macho" sport in favour of "girly" pursuits have manage to muster the strength to lift females partners?

twitter.com/DrewHLive/status/1504896225492946946?s=20&t=EodNj1EX-ufx6CDdk_LT5Q

A man, a man has appeared. Better still two men.

There we were saying elite women cannot compete with elite men, but we made the mistake of not being men so our opinions don't count.

Male 1 - greasy - I have an amazing new idea, i.e. open category.

Male 2 - dad - women are fine being shoved aside by men.

What is it then guys, as you clearly want to mansplain to us the perfect answer?

if you think it is likely that the enormous list of physical difference between men and women only cause a small fraction of the difference in sporting performance between men and women

I didn't say it's likely. I said it's never been accurately studied and determined.

why do you think the difference is more or less consistent across the entire range of events? Surely if societal attitudes account for 99% of differences the gap would be much closer in events that women have been able to participate in for over a century e.g. the 100m than in events that were only recently added to the female event rota e.g. the pole vault.

No, that doesn't logically follow.

What about things such as gymnastics and dance that are seen traditionally feminine pursuits many more girls train in ballet than boys so why aren't girls lifting other girls? How come "unmanly" dancer boys that have turned their backs on "macho" sport in favour of "girly" pursuits have manage to muster the strength to lift females partners?

Those are bad examples because gymnastics and dance are different for men and women.

Why are they different? Hmmmm could it be perhaps maybe because male and bodies are different?

Great meme:

Why are they different? Hmmmm could it be perhaps maybe because male and bodies are different?

Ah, yes. I forgot that men are unable to do floor routines if there is music playing in the background.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-l_XDC8g34

Florida governor DeSantis has just announced they are to make a proclamation naming Emma Weyant (who came second behind Lia Thomas) as the top 500m freestyle swimmer and criticising the NCAA as trying to destroy female athletics.

@flyingbuttress43

www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-l_XDC8g34

Florida governor DeSantis has just announced they are to make a proclamation naming Emma Weyant (who came second behind Lia Thomas) as the top 500m freestyle swimmer and criticising the NCAA as trying to destroy female athletics.

Oh wow

if you think it is likely that the enormous list of physical difference between men and women only cause a small fraction of the difference in sporting performance between men and women

I didn't say it's likely. I said it's never been accurately studied and determined.

I really, really hate the do this because the DSD community have repeatedly ask to be left out of this debate but here goes, if socialization is the main contributing factor then how come three athletes with male DSDs that may have lead to them being identified as females and raised as such have made into the podium in the same Olympic final but zero athletes with female DSD they may have been incorrectly raised as boys have made it anywhere near the Olympics? Not a single hard working, dedicated, determine female bodied athlete has every made it close to male world record because of the crippling nature of female socialization but three of a microscopically small number of make bodied people raised as female all make it to the very top of female sport.at the same time? They managed to shake of the female socialization pretty quickly but not a single natal female in the history of sport has managed to do so? Sorry I'm not buying it.

flyingbuttress43

Wow that's huge ! 'Fraud'.

flyingbuttress43

That is not something I expected to see. Thanks for sharing that!

Oh fuck Ron de Santis. Really, fuck the rightwingers trying to pretend they give a shit about women in this and creating a massive circus in order to wank off their base and meaning that Emma Weyant comes under yet more pressure to dissociate herself from the entire issue.

Go Ron de Santis, and any right wingers, or left wingers, prepared to state the truth and point of the fraud, the cheating, the lies and the cowardice of anyone who goes along with it,

Apparently Lia Thomas should be celebrated like Jackie Robinson and having gender integrated sports will help eradicate difference.

Please only read this if you do not have elevated blood pressure

www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/we-should-be-celebrating-lia-thomas-we-did-jackie-robinson-ncna1292521?fbclid=IwAR0J7WWxUgYC6rw5BqDmJ_Rx3ylPdvGQ8NQMiQtLPn1fNFbckveDWNlyQ34

"Women's sports are situated at a paradoxical intersection wherein sex segregation is upheld through claims of biological difference, yet equality is prefaced on being treated the same and given the same opportunities as men. If we are to change this, we need to ask some important questions. How does one advocate for equitable treatment while also adhering to the notion of biological difference? If separate is not equal in the case of schools, bathrooms, restaurants or other social institutions, can separate ever truly be equal in the case of sports? Would gender-based discrimination in sports be eradicated if sports were gender-integrated?"

Is equality the freedom for women to compete with men, or the freedom to only need to compete with anatomically similar people, i.e. other women?

I'd argue it must be the latter as women will get nowhere competing against men. Sports will become the men's group and the mixed group (second-rate men).