JK Rowling on Keir Starmer

[NancyDrawed]

In the Daily Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10605735/JK-Rowling-slams-Keir-Starmer-Labour-leader-says-trans-women-women.html

'This hill we're all supposed to be dying on is mighty crowded, isn't it? And we all seem very lively, too...'

Love her!

[quote Igneococcus]Today's leading article, comments open but premoderated, I have one pending which I doubt will be allowed:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a49ac38a-a22d-11ec-a1de-983f3d5a1668?shareToken=088392cb01004895f6deb5dd2179baf4[/quote]
@Igneococcus, comments turned off now, when I just followed your link. Many thanks for the share tokens. Most appreciated.

Transmen were born female and so have first hand experience of women's oppression, so they should be supporting us women instead of being silent and not standing with us.

I see gender ideology as a very inward-looking thing, encouraging an obsession with self at the expense of engaging with a wider range of interests and people. My hunch is that for those who have opted out of womanhood (as they see it), our problems cease to be their concern. This is illusory, of course, but would explain why transmen are very silent about women's oppression. Also, they probably want to keep away from all things female in the belief that they will pass better that way.

I wish articles like that didn't keep quoting people like Starmer saying that TWAW and that "this is the law", because that's surely at least somewhat misleading, without spelling out a few more details. But for the random person on the street who has not followed the topic closely, if a well-known lawyer says "here is a thing that is true because it's the law", they are likeliy to believe what he says, and believe that there's nothing that they can do about it anyway, or that they'd be breaking the law if they didn't agree.

(even the Times article above has that in it, despite making the point that sex is real - for the average person who reads it, they may not come away with that as the primary message, but that the legal POV is that TWAW)

I know plenty of people want to buy her books but also plenty of younger people are boycotting her books

A lot of that is all for show though - literally, grandstanding to their viewers/followers. I am a bit suspicious of several anti JK but HP obsessed YouTubers who always seem to be finding totally immaculate HP merch on the secondhand market...

But they should be up in arms at this. Transmen were born female and so have first hand experience of women's oppression, so they should be supporting us women instead of being silent and not standing with us

There are a few that do speak up but amazingly they are ignored almost as if they are in fact women and can safely be ignored.

Dunno how that works

Only just come back onto this thread and seen a lot of people questioning my original comments - possibly quite rightly. I freely admit that I have not read the full article - only the link posted by the OP and previous such links so it is likely that I have missed much of the nuance from what JKR was saying. I also admit that I dashed off my earlier comments quickly in an effort to show that not everyone admires her. I wouldn't normally tell anyone to shut up and I can see why that was questioned.

However I do really object to the Daily Mail type crap that everyone is to be doubted and feared. The sort of nonsense that makes people feel all refugees are scroungers, that all teenagers are wasters who only want screen time or the EU only wanted to screw us by taking our money and imposing restrictions on us. This is a dangerous view of the world.

I feel that the line that transwomen are all really men and therefore somehow threatening to women fits this type of narrative. Men are not all inherently capable of violence just because of their biology. This is the bandwagon I feel JKR has jumped on I know "Be Kind" has been overused and become trite, but at its heart it is a good message. Assume the best in people, be empathetic and give people a chance to live their best lives. Might sound naïve, but I think it is a good way to live.

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that.

I am well aware that most people on this thread will think I am naïve, ill-informed or whatever. I don't really care. You don't need to jump all over my comments ripping them apart unless you really have nothing better to do. I'm just trying to explain myself in a slightly more articulate way than I did before. If you disagree - fine - that is your right.

I think that the vast majority of those who are against JKR are just naive to the truth. It's really simplistic to say that trans people deserve to live their own lives as per their choices. Of course they are. I completely agree. Unfortunately that's where some people's thinking ends. No one should be allowed to make choices about how they live their lives in a way that has a negative impact on someone else. Wear a dress if you wish, but don't take away my right to try on a dress without your penis next to me.
Float your own boat, but don't try to sink mine.

"Men are not all inherently capable of violence just because of their biology."

Yes, they are. Snd we can't tell which ones are and aren't violent/predatory in advance, hence the purpose of single sex spaces.

Around 95% of sexual offences are committed by men and 88% of victims are women.

Trans women have the same offending rates as men btw. Because that's what they are.

I feel that the line that transwomen are all really men and therefore somehow threatening to women fits this type of narrative. Men are not all inherently capable of violence just because of their biology.

Just to be clear, when a man decides he wants to transition to 'become' a 'trans' woman...what is it that he goes through exactly to 'become' one, or do we just have to trust words that he now is one?

i'm really confused as most sexual violence and murders are committed by men aren't they? [97% isn't it?] So what happens to make these men 'safe' to be in women's spaces?

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that.

But what about a woman who has a history of abuse, or is from a certain religion, or is vulnerable for whatever reason? Of course there is a tiny chance that these people might not exist, but there is a far higher chance that they do, and that they want to live their lives the best way they can, and they need some legal protection to do that.

Why do they not matter as much to you as someone who has already grown up with a great deal of male privelege?

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what?

If 20% of the male prison population is in prison for sexually related crimes, but it rises to 50% for 'trans women'...doesn't that make it more unsafe if they say they identify as a woman? So the 'so what' is that the risk to women increases not decreases?

@BiggerBoat1

Only just come back onto this thread and seen a lot of people questioning my original comments - possibly quite rightly. I freely admit that I have not read the full article - only the link posted by the OP and previous such links so it is likely that I have missed much of the nuance from what JKR was saying. I also admit that I dashed off my earlier comments quickly in an effort to show that not everyone admires her. I wouldn't normally tell anyone to shut up and I can see why that was questioned.

However I do really object to the Daily Mail type crap that everyone is to be doubted and feared. The sort of nonsense that makes people feel all refugees are scroungers, that all teenagers are wasters who only want screen time or the EU only wanted to screw us by taking our money and imposing restrictions on us. This is a dangerous view of the world.

I feel that the line that transwomen are all really men and therefore somehow threatening to women fits this type of narrative. Men are not all inherently capable of violence just because of their biology. This is the bandwagon I feel JKR has jumped on I know "Be Kind" has been overused and become trite, but at its heart it is a good message. Assume the best in people, be empathetic and give people a chance to live their best lives. Might sound naïve, but I think it is a good way to live.

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that.

I am well aware that most people on this thread will think I am naïve, ill-informed or whatever. I don't really care. You don't need to jump all over my comments ripping them apart unless you really have nothing better to do. I'm just trying to explain myself in a slightly more articulate way than I did before. If you disagree - fine - that is your right.

@BiggerBoat1 Kudos for you for coming back at least and for being open to dialogue.

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what?

What you're saying is, if a man with penis and testes wants to share your space, so what? That's what you are saying. Do you realise that 97% of transwomen retain their penis and testicles? They are, in effect, a male-bodied person in a woman's safe space? Why so you think there are womens restrooms and mens restrooms? Why do you suppose mens bodies and womens bodies have separate facilities?
Ponder that, then ask yourself why you think a transwoman, ie a male bodied person, should be allowed in a woman's restroom/facility. A transwoman is still a male, with male genitals.
Do you realise that? What you are saying is why should vulnerable women and girls care that a person with a penis and testicles is using womens restrooms and changeroom facilities.

Really, really think about what you are saying but more so the FULL IMPLICATION of what you are saying. Our foresisters fought decades ago for safe spaces for women from male-bodied people. Here you are, advocating for penises and testicles in those spaces and a complete erosure of those boundaries that were set up deliberately for the protections of women. We made laws on the Worst Case Scenario basis, that is WHY women and men have separate facilities.

You are advocating for the complete and total erosure of those boundaries, of all male bodied people to be able to be in those facilities, just because a man says he feels like a woman.

Don't you think that's open to abuse? You are advocating we do away with all safeguarding for women and children, just so you can 'bekind'. Where does it stop, and when does your critical thinking kick in, and when does your empathy for women and children, Muslim Hijabi women (who don't want to see a penis and testicles in their change rooms), domestic violence survivors, rape survivors etc.
Where is your 'empathy' for THEM?

But what about a woman who has a history of abuse, or is from a certain religion, or is vulnerable for whatever reason?

What about women who have not had a history of abuse? Should we put them in the front line? I say no woman should have to be in this position, regardless of her history or religion.

I freely admit that I have not read the full article

Then I freely admit I'm not going to read the rest of your comment.

I'll do you the decency you didn't do Rowling, or indeed anyone involved in the discussion, and refrain from telling everyone how much the post I didn't read was bullshit.

@AlisonDonut

But what about a woman who has a history of abuse, or is from a certain religion, or is vulnerable for whatever reason?

What about women who have not had a history of abuse? Should we put them in the front line? I say no woman should have to be in this position, regardless of her history or religion.

No, I don't think they should have to either.

but I think that sometimes it is easier for people who have not considered the implications of males in female spaces to agree that it is unfair to those with particular vulnerabilities, before they are able to see that it is unfair to all women, because it's perhaps more obvious

i.e., If someone is of the mindset of we must be kind, trying to support the underdog, the vulnerable, the person they think is discriminated against and hard done by ,then at least providing examples of actual women who are in that position might make them think further

Yes Biggerboat1, you are naive, uninformed and whatever, that's why you're getting rigorous push back. That's what mumsnetters do.

@BiggerBoat1 Already we are seeing women being assaulted in their own restrooms and facilities. Transwomen sexually offend at the same rate as other men. One case, is one case too many, and we are already seeing women being assaulted in their own restrooms and facilities.

Here is the evidence:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/amp/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg?fbclid=IwAR1JhugsOSdg58PzKpMAfvzqZVXxb7mRWs93qWqQyBA6vupiwnk1U_BJOOc

www.fox46.com/news/transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-10-year-old-girl-in-bathroom/

www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-girl-say-campaigners-140883?fbclid=IwAR2iMILdrlxCbawettem8KbyhpnRUfjpQIx8ZhPUiEeFGXCia1_soi-5JZI

www.foxnews.com/us/parents-speak-out-at-loudoun-county-school-board-meeting

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

transcrimeuk.com/

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10472547/Trans-rapist-25-groomed-13-year-old-girl-jailed-100-months.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10596441/Woman-83-parole-killing-two-arrested-charged-murder-sfa.html

www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-girl-say-campaigners-140883

And what about the woman that was recently on this site who was the subject of this link? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10249633/Rape-victim-forced-quit-therapy-sessions-feels-threatened-6ft-trans-woman.html She was forced out of a RAPE SURVIVOR group because a man, dressed as a man 'claimed' he was a woman, sat in the group and was GRINNING at women speaking of their trauma, he was clearly a sociopath getting off on it. That is what happens when you open the floodgates to #bekind to the menz feelings, at the expense of actual women. This woman was expelled from the centre. There was already a specific trans group designed for the man in question. But he wanted to invade the womans space. And women rape survivors have nowhere to go now.

Want more evidence of how having 'empathy' for the 'menz feelings' at the expense of women's physical reality is impacting women? How about the LA spa incident #WiSpa where a naked male-bodied person with a semi erection was walking about amongst women and children, in a woman's spa? Later emerged that they are on the sex offenders register. But that was how EASY it was for them to gain access to women's spaces.

This, is what happens when you remove safeguarding and let any MALE in just on their 'say so' that they 'identify' as a woman. This has been a disaster. Women are being raped by men in women's prisons. They are being sexually assaulted by men in women's restrooms and changerooms. They are losing spots to men in their sports. This is what 'bekind' and 'empathy' to men by ZERO empathy to women leads us to. Men can infiltrate women's spaces to perve on us and assault us, and as you can see from the evidence in the links I posted, it is far, far, far more than 'just one' person. One, is one case too many.

It is WHY our foresisters fought for women's safe spaces. Please don't be brainwashed by those who seek to tear down all the safety, safeguards and protections we have, just because you want to be seen to be 'empathetic' towards male-bodied people. Those safeguards were put in place for a reason. There is no difference between a male who says he is a male, and a male who says he is a woman. BOTH cases have a penis and testicles, testosterone and the ability to overpower a woman.

Yes, 'not all men' BiggerBoat1, but it is almost always men, regardless of how they choose to 'identify'. So why tell us we must have our spaces made unsafe because some males demand validation for their identities?
All the reasons we segregate by sex where women and children are at their most vulnerable haven't magically disappeared because some males claim to be women.

The fact is it is men who are actively campaigning to remove female legal protections and child safeguarding and if that doesn't set off some fucking alarm bells then you really must be incredibly naive.

“If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that.”

Male sex offenders are identifying as women and being put in women’s prisons.

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that

This used to be the way it went, tw would use our toilets etc and for quite some time that was tolerable to women who used to feel sorry for them.
Then self Id was implemented, no talking, no debate, no asking if that was ok, nothing. It simply was, and then women started to think about the implications of self id and how any man could simply say "I am a woman " and we women could do nothing about that.
We saw the downfalls to self id, we also got quite upset that no one thought they needed to ask us what we thought.

Then of course some women will say who cares, it doesn't matter to me, completely forgetting the other women who it really does matter to. Those who if self Id is accepted everywhere and anywhere will no longer be able to use formerly women only spaces.

That's quite a lot of women to ignore and those women including me are rightly angry that we were ignored and we now cannot take a fuller part in life.

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that.

How many women are acceptable collateral?

There are women being raped in the female prison estate by convicted sexual offenders who identify as women.

There are women having to self exclude from rape crisis services because organisations are refusing to provide single sex services, despite being allowed to due to the exemptions in the Equality Act 2010.

Female athletes are being cheated in sporting competitions by having to compete with males and are being silenced by their sporting authorities when they raise concerns.

I could go on and on. There are so many examples.

How many women are acceptable collateral?

And as we keep saying, self id means that any man, however they identify, can declare themselves a woman (no change needed to appearance or presentation) and access single sex spaces. If a woman raises concerns, she is branded a transphobe and subject to the silencing effect.

You really can't see how this could be abused by predators?

@BiggerBoat1 Can I ask, in a 'woke' vs 'woke' competition, who has right of way, in your opinion?
The hijabi Muslim who wants to relax in a woman's spa or change room or facility, and remove hijab in the presence of women, assured that she is in a woman's only space, OR, the male who wants to get his dick and balls out in in a woman's spa or change room or facility?

Who has right of way? Who are you going to support? The Muslim woman (who is already restricted in how much she can participate in western society and this will see her confined to her house more), or the privileged male person with a penis or testicles. You have to make the call. You can only choose one:
so which will it be? Will you put the rights of MEN above the dignity, safety, and mental, psychological and emotional wellbeing of women?

Who do you choose in this woke vs woke situation? Vulnerable women? Or the privileged male bodies?

^Muslim women have a right to be in a spa without seeing male genitals. This is common sense.

Domestic violence and rape survivors have a right to be in a spa without seeing male genitals. This is common sense.^

Look, here's the TL;DR for those who can't read a short and well-written piece before blundering in.

It's not that transwomen are all predators. It's that opening women's spaces to any male person who just says he identifies as female, no further process required, is wide open to abuse by predatory men. It's happened already and judging by the daily death and rape threats, and hijacking of a thread about children's art work with obscene images, it will happen again.

You are not being virtuous or liberal by encouraging this. Think about reality, not your self image.